Stick to Sports 63: The NHL Draft, Logan Mailloux and Blackhawks

Hi everyone, so I actually fell asleep before the end of the draft because I’m a chronic Insomniac so I have a hard time staying up at night, and I woke up at 430 in the morning, as I often do now, and that’s when I found out that the Canadians had dropped in Logan Mio. Now, I actually don’t know how to pronounce his name and I looked through the London night sight but I couldn’t find it so I it’s very important to me to pronounce people’s names right. If I didn’t, I’m sorry I couldn’t find it anywhere. But I was absolutely shocked and disgusted. And second, that, and it was two things in succession, because first. He was drafted, and then the Blackhawks had the gall to stand up there with, like, eight women and Stan Bowman, said something about making the organization better, and it was just absolutely disgusting, like incredibly just disgusting. Going back to logon and drafting him. The common theme. Okay so, if anything, I think this is a longer discussion. I’m gonna go with some basics first and then I’ll expand but number one what Logan did is not a mistake, you know he had consensual sex with a woman but then he took a picture without her consent and he distributed it without her consent. That is not a mistake that is a malicious attack that is extremely, extremely malicious. You know it’s not a mistake, and this is a common theme we see really in society with boys and men where they can do something horrible and people just chalk it up to a mistake but it’s not a mistake. And, I mean you know hockey did this recently with Mitchell Miller right like his bullying has chronic bullying wasn’t a mistake. That’s not a mistake. And, you know he had for cused quote unquote recused himself from the draft what you can actually do, you’re still available to be picked, and you know he, like, the victim had told Katie Strang that, you know, she never got an adequate apology from him which completely just crosses that off, you know, he never apologized, except for in his public Notes app statement. And, you know, even if he had apologized to her. I don’t believe that there are, I don’t believe in second chances for people who do things like that, because it’s very deliberate, very malicious, and you know you can ruin someone, and you can the harm you can do to someone, when you do something like that is just terrific. Even if we do believe in second chances, which, again, in this case, I don’t believe that I do, but he never even apologize to her. He never, he never got gave her what she was asking for. And that automatically just should have wiped him off the draft board completely, I’m not shocked that it didn’t. I’m disgusted, but I’m not shocked. And the other thing is that, you know, playing, playing at hockey at a high level is a privilege, not a right. And you don’t deserve that, if you are malicious like that and if you hurt someone like that and if you, you, you don’t deserve that. He does not deserve that. Now, the Canadians, it’s just really truly important. Anyway, they actually had prepared a statement. Yes they did. They prepared a statement on drafting him. And I’m going to read the statement to you. The Canadians have released the following statement after selecting defenseman Logan mile 31st and the 2021, NHL draft on Friday night by drafting prospect Logan mio with a 31st overall pick the Montreal Canadiens organization not only selected a promising hockey player, but also a young man who recently admitted a serious mistake admitted to making a serious mistake. The Canadians are aware of the situation and by no means minimize the severity of Logan’s actions. Logan understands the impact of his actions his recent public statement is a genuine acknowledgement of his poor behavior and his first step on his personal journey. We are making a commitment to accompany Logan on this journey by providing him with the tools to mature the necessary support to guide him in his development. We’re also committed to raising awareness among our players about the risk of public percussions of their actions on the lives of others. That’s the statement. I’m going to scream.

First of all,

and it’s actually, it’s, I’ve been thinking a lot about this because when I, when we wrote the book I went back and I was writing the section on, you know, sexual assault, sexual violence, and I, you know, have a few examples where players have been sent to jail for rape. And, you know, still played hockey pro hockey so the most recent example that comes to mind is Ben Johnson, and that he signed on with the Cincinnati cyclones and they released a statement that was very similar to this and structure, or basically they were like We don’t minimize what he did. Oh the Cincinnati also went ahead and said something like, we, you know, would have been the easy thing to not to not sign him which is absolute just total I just It’s horrific like this whole thing is horrific. But it was pretty much the same thing, where they’re like, we’re gonna give them, you know, it


that the general sense of it was, we don’t minimize what happened, but we’re totally still okay with drafting this person or signing this person, which is contradictory, it means you absolutely do minimize what happened, you those two things do not go together it’s an oxymoron, you can’t take what he did seriously and still think it’s okay to draft him. And, again, not a mistake, not a freaking mistake. And I know I saw when I was scrolling at 430 in the morning that people on Twitter were saying if you have to release a statement. If you have to have a statement prepared for a prospect to draft you probably should not be drafting that prospect. And this is also the same team that traded PKC ban because of quote unquote character issues so yeah like I mean, if I feel like as a society, we’re kind of shifting towards this is we’re doing this, our horribleness and our, you know, giving a safe space for abusers we’re doing all of that more in public now than we used to as a society. That’s just the trend that I’m seeing with things like this with you know, no repercussions for the Blackhawks right now. And then you know the last part about committed to accompanying Logan on his journey you know provided him with the tools. We said this when Arizona drafted Mitchell Miller, you do not have anything. There is, there is no reasoning behind why you would be a good organization to develop his care To quote unquote develop his character or leave him, you know, make put him on the street of being a better quote unquote person, you know you’re not an organism, you’re a hockey organization in your hockey organization with a proven track record of not knowing what character issues are and, you know, racism and all that other fun stuff. So, I don’t. You’re there’s nothing there is absolutely nothing that indicates that Canadians are the right organization to make him a better person. And again, the fact that they would be willing to put effort into this, when they wouldn’t do whatever Piquet’s character flaws. I just you know it’s it’s such blatant racism and it’s such as hockey is just like a breeding ground to harbor and a safe space for abusers. And it’s just this whole thing is horrific. I mean he just should not have been drafted. And, I mean, you know media is out here tweeting about crackin as I, you know, wrote in my, I wrote a piece on Patreon about the Blackhawks and, you know, people were pointing out that they’re tweeting of all the crack and expansion draft picks but literally no one say anything about the Blackhawks. No one’s saying anything about the fact that he was still on. You know my I was still on teams draft boards that that’s the important, I just you know what I mean and then I’ve seen a lot of quote unquote insiders be outrageous about this but like these are the same people who enabled this behavior for like decades. So it’s all, to me it’s all just like, you know, if, if you were scared to do with that or for whatever reason, like, you know, please save your indignation, because we see right through you and it’s still just like a slap in the face so you know what, it’s ridiculous. If you had spoken out about this sooner or like if the media had actually called, you know, held hockey accountable somewhere along the way we might not even be here but their refusal to means that we are here and that we’re here at a much more embolden place where teams feel like they can draft a player like him, and the first round. And that it’ll be okay. And I mean, my heart, you know, my heart goes out to the survivor the victim. And what she and her family must be going through and I just, I’m so sorry for them, and I feel terrible for them. And, I mean there’s no reason why his redemption arc is more important than her life and her well being and her peace of mind. You know,

it’s just,

I mean, but the way you know the way. Hockey treats victims like I wrote this again yesterday, that you know after my sexual assault, I felt like you know I couldn’t go back because just the way hockey treats victims, it’s just so horrendous. Which brings me to the next point.


what do you call that my gosh. The Blackhawks also should change their name, but that’s a debate for another day. Got up their stand Oh, way way way Wait as Sam so lovely pointed out. I have defined this in the statement I moved to my Windows. The GM who drafted Logan Mio. Marc Bergevin is the same person who was with Chicago in 2010 that silence is intentional because I want that to let it, I want that to sink in for a minute. Yeah, I don’t think I even need to say anything. And it’s a good segue into the Blackhawks who had the audacity to stand up there with eight women and say that they want to make themselves a better organization and like, From where I’m standing, I’m honestly not okay with those women working for the Blackhawks because they are being used as a shield, and I know that pickings for women are slim. And I want them to get what they deserve. But it’s just empowering an organization that has, you know is currently, you know, being sued for alleged abuse and cover up. And that’s just not okay and I’m not okay with that. And I know people have said like they don’t blame the woman, and I’m not saying that I do blame them, but I’m just not okay with them standing up there with Stan Bowman, as he says what he says. I just, it was horribly disgusting and an even bigger slap in the face I mean I wrote extensively about why I believe Chicago should be disbanded in a post on Patreon. But I, I just wanted to add that. It’s that the black I mean this, this, this, the fact that it happened right after one another, I mean it’s just absurd. This whole thing is just ridiculous and I, you know, it’s, and then ESPN had the segment after my I was drafted about canceled culture, where he said the guy said you know I don’t believe in canceled culture. I don’t even have the energy to just ESPN has a trash heap, but I don’t even have the energy to deal with that so I’m keeping it short today but it’s also 840 in the morning and I, I don’t know I mean everything is pretty, pretty blatant, like I don’t really need to explain anything. It’s just that nobody wants to say anything when there are like three people are going to say anything and I don’t cover the NHL anymore so I don’t have an avenue to really do anything. Besides this, which I don’t know if it’s helpful or not, but it’s all it’s wild that Evan and I, our book has already been printed and nothing has changed in fact I feel like things have actually gotten worse since we started writing it so I’m just like this. None of this is even in there, because it’s all happened after it was written. And I mean, you know the Blackhawks can be a book on itself.


anyway, that’s all I’m gonna say. So, questions, comments, concerns, you can tweet at me at ice hockey stick at underscore sec to sports. I guess I’ll see you all eventually or talk to you all eventually have a have a weekend fighting. White patriarchal supremacy.

Transcribed by

Transcript: Episode 53

Danielle 0:00
Hi, everyone. Welcome

J S 0:01
to this week’s edition of stick to sports. I’m your host Jashvina Shar. So for this week I spoke with I’m actually very excited for this podcast because it’s about my favorite topic ever. But I spoke with Danielle, who is a co host on mother puckers podcast, which is a flyers centered podcast. And we had a great conversation about white feminism in hockey. She has a lot of really great points that are all like spot on. So I’m just going to go straight to that interview. And I hope that you all enjoy. How did you get into hockey?

Danielle 0:39
That’s really weird. I didn’t. So I grew up in the Philadelphia area. I grew up like hearing about hockey. Mostly by Winston. Unfortunately, Harvard didn’t really freak me out. My mom grew up in Philly. So it was just knowing where the sports arenas where she was like, we do not go down there. Like it’s already a very, there’s already I feel like I grew up with it already being in a very like racist light. Just because of the area in Philadelphia, where everything like sports related happens. South Philly hasn’t always been so kind of isn’t the kind of place minorities. It’s obviously gotten better since my mom was growing up in Florida. But that’s where her trepidation came from. And then it kind of got passed on to me. I pretty much found hockey through friends like I started seeing online and I love the contact sport. I’ve played sports myself. So you know, I love the speed. I love the contract. And it was really fascinating to me. And I don’t I don’t think I really got into it until I watched it a hotel was on a work trip. And they accreditor scene was on and pgcbl still with them. And I ended up watching and i just i couldn’t move. I was just so enthralled with it. And then I ended up moving to DC actually during the capitals cup run. So that kind of was blacking out. Kaplan will do that to you. But yeah, I mean, since then, like I I’m mostly just a big fan of the sport and not like a hardcore team person. Like, I like pretty much almost all the metro teams. It gets rough for me personally. But, you know, I have made so many good friends. And it’s been a wild ride. It’s certainly been interesting.

J S 2:27
Yeah, I was kind of the same way. Like I just started watching on TV. And that was it like, so how did what was your experience, like when you went to your first game?

Danielle 2:38
It was actually really interesting. I was really nervous. I, I kind of decided on the land was really bad day at work. And I had a friend there who was also from the Philadelphia area, and we talked hockey pretty often. And we both had a really crappy day. And I was like, Alright, I want to go to my first game. And if you and she’s a white woman, and I was like, my only trepidation about this is like, if a racist tries to yell at, you have to help me fight. If you’re not gonna help me, then I don’t want to. And she was like, Oh, absolutely, let’s go. So I trusted her and I needed guidance, I knew that if I was going to go to a game, I would have to go with someone that I trusted or just somebody that like would have my back if something were to happen just because I don’t trust white people, especially white men. So we went and it was actually really awesome. It was a it was the captain’s times playoff series. So it was a very intense game. ended up making friends with a very nice Canadian man next to me, who was very shocked that we knew so much about hockey, which was, you know, expected and annoying all at once. And it was actually just a really nice experience. I don’t know if it’s just playoff hockey or, you know, I’ve never had a bad experience in Capital One. So maybe it’s bad as well, I don’t really know. But it was it was a lot more community driven than I expected. I mean, I’m still moving through the arena, as you know, as a minority and still as somebody who is I was looking over my shoulder and it was like, paying attention to what was around me. I was very hyper vigilant as usual. But, you know, it was it was shocking how comfortable I felt. Which is very interesting as a first experience, because the rest of my experience has been here.

J S 4:35
Yeah, I feel I think that is interesting because like you You were hyper vigilant. I feel like when I first started I was just I mean I was also like 16 and kind of God knows my head in the clouds 15 or whatever. So like, like all this stuff just went over my head because I was not a very smart child. And then now it’s like every second I can go through an arena without like thinking all of this stuff. Just like yeah, just like compounds and it just, I don’t know, if it’s because you just notice more as like, the longer you’re around, but that seems to be the case with a lot of people is like, it gets progressively worse. And I like, yeah.

Danielle 5:18
You just ended up noticing more and more and like, I just it’s just the more arenas I guess it as well like you, you notice like what arenas you feel okay and in what situations you feel watched and in what situations, you know, like you feel the need to be hyper vigilant. And I mean, especially, I feel like it’s also because like, the more that you’re into the sport, and what do you pay attention. Unfortunately, the more you see about what happy culture is like, so, you know, the games might be really fun and like the environments exciting and stuff like that. And like that’s, I feel like that’s what a lot of people get stuck on is like, well, how can I see that? If you know, you love going to games like you love with the environment. You love the sport you love? I’m like I do. But that doesn’t mean that doesn’t happen in a vacuum. That doesn’t mean that the entire hockey experience stays inside of the arena. Yeah.

J S 6:14
You can’t like separate hockey from it’s like, it’s all one thing together. You can’t just separate it from everything else, which Yeah, I think that a lot of people kind of miss that. Because it’s like, Yeah, I love hockey. But also, it’s just everything around, like the game itself is fantastic. And there are things like outside of it, like you mentioned, the community and there’s certain spaces and rings that are always going to feel like home. But then there’s all this other stuff around it. That’s just really crappy.

Danielle 6:46
And I remember like I spent a while I had found a good group of friends within hockey. And I, I was fine. And then I remember, I started doing motherfuckers and the cricket with this woman’s name was actually Kim Smith, baby, the statue and a racist statue. And he’s still

J S 7:12
not the God bless America. Okay, yeah.

Danielle 7:16
And that was the first time that I knew I had already known and like I, especially having kind of just like being aware of hockey and hockey culture. During the 2016 election in the United States, like I, I obviously knew certain things, and I knew about certain players, and I knew who I wasn’t going to touch and I knew I knew certain things, and I still mess it. But I think that was the first time that I was one directly. I guess there was just like, it wasn’t just a personal thing for me anymore. I was really in it. So that happens, and it kind of kind of brought me back to reality. It’s like, okay, now this is, yes, you are getting comfortable. But like, that is not something that we can really afford to do. And especially because like we I mean, it’s not a large platform, but like just being able to talk and knowing flyers fans, especially like Philadelphia fans, like they don’t want to talk about that. And like hearing the responses to that can be taken down. And it was just a lot. And it was very, it was very clarifying. And it was very frustrating. And I think ever since then it’s been a very, like, I haven’t forgotten that. They will remind you if you forget.

J S 8:32
Yeah, like the 16 election seem to just be like, because you always knew but then all of a sudden everyone was being really public about where they stood. And it’s just like, you’re on an island. It was like you’re on a little you’re on ice and then ever all the ice around you cracks and now you’re on you’re on your own little island of ice is like what I feel like it is. Yeah. And then you mentioned kind of, you know, it being frustrating, that whole experience, but did you have like any anxiety because like, I know certain people? It’s just, it’s very, like anxiety inducing to be in that position.

Danielle 9:13
Yeah, I mean, it was very frustrating. It was it interesting, especially because, you know, we didn’t talk about it on the podcast and like, we we were not at that point like and I mean, at any point we’ve never really pulled any punches and like we’re very honest about the very honest dialogue like me, a comedian, another white woman or two white women. So I I am very honest. I am very honest about my spot in it and I’m very honest about you know, before when we were talking about it, I was like, I would like to talk about this i don’t i don’t think that you guys should talk about this because it’s really not your legacy, not really your place and like it doesn’t affect you. So, you know, you can add on after if you want to, but I’m gonna I’m gonna run this because This is not something that I feel comfortable with you touching. And like, if that’s going to be the way that it isn’t, I don’t really want to do this. And we’ve always operated in that way. And it’s always been a very open space. And I’ve never felt uncomfortable with the two of them. I was very, I was encouraged to speak my mind. And like, they wanted to hear it, as you know, as people that are trying to consistently do better, and also hold other people accountable. They were trying to, like make sure that I could say my piece, but it was extremely anxiety inducing. I knew I needed to be the one talking, but I also knew that that would be probably very targeting. Roughly, it wasn’t that I know of nothing I saw, and I don’t really pay attention

to July. So as far as I know, nobody really had the gall to say anything publicly. I mean, got over it, but it was really anxiety inducing. And it was really, especially seeing like, I think it was worse, because I’ve been watching for days, right? People get attacked on Twitter about this, and like, braided and you get sent death threats. And I was like, if there’s any left to right people, what the herd name is gonna be what they like here, if you’re attacking, you know, people that you see as good an ass or is equal to you. What do you say to me? And I mean, that’s just something you kind of have to come to terms with before you speak up and just be like this might happen. And if it does, and we’re gonna deal with this. I mean, 30 anxiety, like, I was able to say something and speak up a bit and give a quote from my friends who was writing something and, you know, try and say my piece. But it was really, it was very scary, just because I don’t, you know, it’s kind of just an unpredictable arena, especially when you’re dealing with people on social media. People get absolutely out of their avatar tree, and don’t really remember them.

J S 12:10
Yeah, and if you haven’t dealt with it, it’s not really something that’s understandable. Like, I don’t know how to describe that to someone. But it’s just like, and the target and the target on your back thing like I that I think is a perfect way of phrasing it.

Danielle 12:26
I’m sure you are very


J S 12:32
It’s not great. I’m actually at that point where like, now it doesn’t bother me

Danielle 12:37
anymore, which I don’t think it’s a good

thing. Why are you live?

J S 12:49
Yeah, part of me is probably dead, but like, I can’t help it. Like I see people saying things and then I’ll fight with them. And I’m like, I shouldn’t be getting so much enjoyment out of like arguing with racists online.

Danielle 13:01
Honestly, it’s just like, I I enjoyed watching it, because you truly just like when you don’t yield any ground, and you’re just like, I’ve already told you this. I don’t know why you have the intention. Because it’s like, I’m not going to be around this. Why should I? Thank you. I’ve really

J S 13:23
enjoyed arguing with Brendan price. That was probably my favorite. Actually.

Danielle 13:28
That was excessive. You know, it made me want to watch Hidden Figures. But I haven’t watched in a long time. Maybe I think

J S 13:38
maybe. I mean, Brandon quest makes the roll. So I guess

Danielle 13:45
I should have I should check in with them.

J S 13:51
Yeah, so when we reach that point, I feel like it’s kind of questionable whether or not it’s like a good thing. Yeah, your points were very good would transition very well to white feminism, which I know there is a lot of things to say. But before we get there, you did talk about like you have to come to terms with that. If you go ahead and you say something, you might get some pushback, and this might happen. So what was your process to because that that is a scary step to take. So what was your process to kind of sealing yourself and coming to terms with that?

Danielle 14:26
Honestly, like I’m such an over thinker. So if I’m if I really do feel strongly about something, I just throw myself into doing it. I just kind of rely on that. Like righteous anger about it just once I get to a certain point and I’m just angry enough that I don’t care. That’s when I’m like, okay, we’re gonna do it. I just like I just have to rely on that part of myself that is not willing to sit down and isn’t prepared. Because I feel like there’s this great part All of us that are scared, like we’re all scared to speak up, especially in an environment where it’s dominated by, you know, white, heterosexual male perspective. And they make no mistake or any hesitation to remind you and remind you that you are not wanted or welcome, that it is a privilege for you to be here. So you’re welcome and sit down. So I mean, that’s always I feel like I had already saying yes, to do this, during the podcast, already. I’ve already kind of come to terms with the fact that people wouldn’t always like what I was going to say. One, because I’m not like a super traditional fan, like I don’t, I really don’t, it’s a hobby, like I, I’m not a GM, I’m a coach, I do not have this weird, like rabid need to be correct about my cakes. And you know, what I think the team should do or something like that I don’t, that’s not my job. My job is to give my opinion and to enjoy myself, if I don’t enjoy myself, and what is the point of this? What am I doing? So I mean, I already knew that, especially being a black woman, especially the only black woman and a queer black woman on the podcast I had already known in my head, I was like, well, no one’s gonna like anything I say. I’m going to be the Debbie Downer, which I usually am. And I don’t really care. So I mean, I’ve already kind of come to terms with it. And we had a couple episodes under our belt, where we talked about, you know, feminism, and hockey, and we touched a little bit on like, racism and hockey and like we’re getting warmed up. So I think I just kind of gotten my footing, to not be afraid anyway. So truly, it just, it was a terribly perfect storm. And you just have to find that thing that you need to latch on to, to just push right past the fear and just say what you have to say, honing in on that one thing, whether it’s anger, or hope, or, you know, feeling like you’re correct. You know, I love to be right. So I don’t mind holding on. Hold on to whatever you have to to be able to speak up, because it’s more important for you to speak up. And it is for other people, too. If that makes sense.

J S 17:30
Yeah, I would like to thank you for all that you do. Because that’s a really important perspective to have. And I can’t even imagine what it must be like to take that step. But and I think the I’m just here to give my opinion and have fun is a very good self care tip that people in hockey, you should pay attention to, because most of us don’t know how to do that.

Danielle 17:56
It’s honestly, I have to laugh about it now. Because it’s, it is like, it’s, it’s wild to me how much? I don’t know, if it’s, I don’t know, it’s just projection. Like, we’re all projecting onto a sport. We’re all you know, finding some refuge and all this nonsense. And, you know, it’s a solace for a lot of people. But I, I don’t know if it’s just like injecting your own anxieties and your own need for control into an arena that you have no control over, or something. But people really do think that they can just control whatever these teams and these people. Why would you? Why are you thinking about it like that? Like you should be thinking about it? Like, why would the GM make that decision to keep this player that you liked, because you like them? He’s not good. And I don’t care to be fair. I don’t care. I’m not that’s not my decision. I have no business stake in this. And to be fair, I don’t like I know that it’s the business. And I feel like that’s so consistently that and it’s a great song every time it is. Because it’s like, you’re using that as a smokescreen to absolve you of whatever you’ve just done wrong. To fall back on. It’s a business decision, you’re being too emotional, or you need to take out, you know, X, Y and Z factors a business decision. It’s like maybe we need to figure out a different way to do business. Because the way that people do business is not very ethical when it comes to pretty much anything. So I find that arguments so fascinating, and I’m like, are you a stakeholder? Do you hold stock in the team like I what is happening

J S 19:47
I mean, sports fans are like I i’ve cooled down a little bit. I used to be insane when I was little like, it was really bad and I just it’s like, the most unhealthy thing like a lot of sports fans. They’re just way too unhealthily attached. And it’s like, way too much like, because I cover college hockey, like our big thing is world juniors. And every year when world juniors comes around, it’s like, we always have to ask ourselves, why do we care so much about the outcome of like a bunch of 1819 and 20 year olds, like, it’s ridiculous. ridiculous how much we care about this. And it’s like, this is not healthy.

Danielle 20:28
Once you come to terms with how odd sports in general are and like our investment in them, I feel like it’s just a much easier process. That’s true.

J S 20:36
Yeah, the whole concept of it. It’s like, why?

Danielle 20:40
Think about what we’re doing here. Because like I, I forget, what I was saying to a friend was, you know, that athletic ability, it takes them like what to literally run around on shoes and have knives on them. Smack people with sticks. Yeah, I can see that. That’s pretty difficult, like, but you have to understand the complete lunacy of entire sports. Thing is ridiculous. and fun to watch over here.

J S 21:08
Especially when you think about like, I don’t know how familiar you are with kind of like the junior systems and just like, but it’s like ridiculous, like the things players go through. Like they leave home at 12. Like they built

Danielle 21:19
It’s crazy. When I was when I got into hockey, really like paying attention and wasn’t just like watching here and there. And they wanted to know more about the sport. I was like, I’m sorry, you’re shipping your child away. Family, so they can go be a workhorse. operation. This is very odd. You’re putting an escape at three years old. That doesn’t sound doesn’t sound good.

J S 21:53
I’m convinced hockey is a scam, like convinced.

Danielle 21:57
I think it is a scam to be fair. And I mean, I buy it it clearly with my eyes wide open.

J S 22:09
Like for kids who want to get recruited by colleges, like everyone keeps, like making up these showcases, and then you have to pay money to like go to skills camps, and then to be in these showcases, and I’m like, it’s a total scam.

Danielle 22:19
The whole thing is so much money.

J S 22:24
Yeah, I don’t think my kids are ever gonna play hockey

Danielle 22:27
I ever felt and they’re not like putting a black child to hockey, I fire every single black player. But I, I as a mother probably would not be able to do it. I am far too protective. And I would get I would go to jail or something. You know, it’s

J S 22:47
it’s so going to white feminism, obviously, very broad topic. But I remember that you kind of said that. Like, I don’t remember what I said, because I say a bunch of crap all the time. But I said something. And then you were like hockey’s not ready to have this conversation about white feminism. And I think you’re right. I mean, I don’t know if it’ll ever be ready. But I like I don’t even know where to start. It’s such a it’s such an important topic, but also one that’s so broad, because there are just, there are several aspects to it, obviously. So I guess I’ll give you the floor if you however you want to start.

Danielle 23:28
Yeah, I mean, I, I’m also just I don’t know, I’m probably a little harsh. But I when I’m talking about this kind of stuff in an encouraging way. And like as usually at all, because if I’m talking about it, like I, I have a lot of white women friends and hockey, clearly that’s going to happen. can’t really get around it. And I don’t really like talking to a lot of men that watch hockey. So you know. And, you know, and hockey also has a very large query engine. So like, that will be in right away. And it’s, when I’m talking about this kind of stuff, like I’m never I’m always talking about if the perspective of if you’re talking about this, like if you if you are opening your mouth to talk about this, then you should be willing and wanting to get better. And that’s always going to be a thing that you’re going to need to do that there’s no like top to your level ally, like you’re always going to be you know, at a disadvantage because you do not have the perspective of other people. And you are always going to be learning and that needs to be accepted and acknowledged doesn’t make you less than it doesn’t mean that someone is trying to put you down or make you feel stupid like I think that’s just your you know, your white privilege talking and thinking that you should know everything and you know, acting like you. You should, you should be privy to everything which you’re out unfortunately, you’re inherently not what I’m talking about this like I’m not talking to people that I have to suddenly convince that I deserve to have a say in something, or that I deserve to have anything. No, I am not here to convince you and my humanity and what I am deserving of. You can go to someone else for that I like if you want to be fully educated from the ground up, Google is right there. But I was I absolutely engage in conversations by friends All the time, about you know, well, there’s X, Y and Z about this that you are not even thinking about, and they sit there and they take it with them. And they think about it. Like, if you’re not willing to do the work, then I’m not really going to waste my breath. If that makes sense. It might be harsh, but yeah, and I might not be the best person to like further the sport or like, broaden it. But, you know, like, I don’t think that that should be the job of black women of color. Like, I don’t think that should be the job of any woman of color to educate you from the ground up. I think that’s what we need our allies for. And I think that that is, it’s, it’s frustrating and fascinating to watch a lot of this unfold, because you can tell that a lot of people kind of grasp that. Like, they get that like, oh, like there’s a lot of buzzwords and a lot of, you know, social justice II terms that people like to use, but I don’t think they really understand. And it’s like, oh, like, it’s not my responsibility as a black woman to teach you this. Like, you’re right. It’s not, but it is yours, if you want to, if you like you’re missing the second step, there is there is a responsibility that you have. Like it’s not, before acknowledging the fact that people do need to be led to a conclusion, people do need to have some type of education. But we’re also agreeing that it should not be the work of the marginalized people in this circle to have to do that. Where does that fall? It’s very, it’s not I mean, it’s common sense to me, because I’m like, this is profitable nominations. It is like, I should not have to leave you here. But and it’s also, I think there’s such a heavier left is to educate other people that look like you. Because you, I guess, like, they need to see where they’re coming from. And you’re like, I know, this is hard, and like, I don’t want to push them too far. And I don’t want to push them away. But it’s not always that wholesome. I think a lot of it is just, I think a lot of

there’s clearly a lot of like, up and coming white women, sports, and especially in hockey. And you know, there’s a small, small group, but I say a smaller group that people will look up to or look to, but nobody’s actually did, they, like they’re not some saviors of the sport, like, you also need to do work, I don’t care who you write for, I don’t care what podcast you’re on, I don’t care. You know, what you do, I don’t care if you’re a hockey player, I couldn’t, I really couldn’t care less, you still have work to do. And if you’re not willing to, one, hold yourself accountable, and also hold your peers accountable, then you’re part of the problem. And like, I, if you’re not willing to have these conversations, and like, you know, it’s, I feel like there’s just a hard line that a lot of people find, quote unquote, divisive, but you can’t really, I’m not going to sacrifice my own mental health because you don’t know how to step up.

J S 28:40
And you shouldn’t and you’re right, it is common sense. Now that I think about it, I see where a lot of people kind of don’t get to the second step. Like they’ll do the first step. But then a lot many people actually I feel like won’t get to the second step which is very odd now that you say it like that. It’s does seem like common sense. So you did mention accountability, and that’s kind of a big thing. I mean, they’re just like so many different factors. So

you mentioned I know like we were talking about before, you mentioned that you do have an interest in women’s hockey which is a whole other bag of worms that it’s like racist so argue with on Twitter, but women’s hockey, like I will not touch that with a 10 foot pole anymore because just the absolute worst

Danielle 29:31
score horrible.

J S 29:33
I’m so quick. I miss covering women’s hockey, but I’m also kind of glad I don’t anymore, because it’s just like, oh boy, it’s a whole thing. But how in what ways like for someone who doesn’t understand that there is a white feminism problem in hockey, if you can, like say a sentence or two I don’t even know how to like how would you explain to someone that it exists because a lot of people just don’t It goes over their head. And people don’t even realize like there are so many. I feel like there are a lot of

Danielle 30:07
a lot of white women

J S 30:08
in hockey, whether it’s women’s hockey, or men’s hockey, whether they’re reporters, or they work for teams who don’t quite who just don’t think that there’s a problem, and they don’t see that there’s a problem. And the biggest barrier, or at least one of the biggest barriers, I feel like is that they’re not willing to listen, which is, yeah, you can’t do anything if that person doesn’t think that.

Danielle 30:32
They’re, you know, I think, mostly, especially when you’re talking, in my experience, when I’ve been talking to family, or white new wife, friends, or something like that, I just tried to put in the perspective of like, Look around you like if you? Yes, there are women in this room. But it doesn’t, it matters, that it’s only white women, why does it matter? Because that is only one type of accepted in an arena is that? Is that supposed to be correct? Like, is that supposed is there other types of living here? Are there other types of women around you? Do you see them in your office? Are they consulted about anything? Do you talk about them? Do you see them ever? Because is that reflective of the world around you? If it is, then open your eyes. But I mean, you walk outside, and there’s a plethora of different types of women, and different types of people. And if you’re especially on the basis of, Oh, we have to grow the sport, and we have to and hoppiest for everyone, and it’s okay. If people aren’t seeing themselves in these positions, and why would they think that they’re welcome. If your goal here is to broaden the sport, and to bring people in, that’s really and truly your goal, then you would be able to realize that your feminism is only speaking for one type of woman. And it’s a majority position. It is a serious position of privilege. And use that like it doesn’t help to because it’s working for me doesn’t mean you don’t like it. I think that’s a hard point to hit home. But it’s a just trying to get people to think outside of their perspective. And be like, well, if you’re in a room filled with people that didn’t look like you, and you were the only one there. How would you feel? And it’s it’s also hard. When you’re trying to talk about why feminism they then it’s a whole conversation of, well, what’s the difference between white feminism and just feminism? I don’t understand. It’s just feminism. And people get very defensive. And it’s not, it’s not your one here in light and getting your backup. So let’s just calm down. It’s not a slur. Just please calm down. Karen calling, calling it white feminism does not mean that I am

J S 33:15
cursing your name, or calling you Karen.

Danielle 33:18
Yeah, like, I’m not calling you, Karen and I will if I want to calm down. You want to be marginalized very badly. But like,

J S 33:28
that’s the thing, the victim, okay, you can continue. It’s

Danielle 33:32
like it’s a very big victim complex. It’s like, well, I don’t know why you’re attacking me when I’m trying to make things better. And okay, if you’re a real, like, if you’re a full feminist, like an intersectional, feminist for every type of woman, every color, every gender, everything, then why are you only advocating for women that look like you and your space? Like, it’s to me like, it’s just, every time he talks about it, I’m like, I would like you to answer you. I want you to give me the answers here. Like, I am not going to tell you that you’re wrong. A lot of it is just like, Okay, so then what about that? And asking a lot of questions and having people answer their own questions. Because a lot of the time you see people be like, Why don’t know why Why do that? Okay? Of course, you don’t want to do that. It’s not really a conscious thing. You know, like, racism is always conscious. There’s a lot of subconscious criticism. Yeah. All over the place, especially with like feminism. That’s half the problem with getting to the root of it and like, fixing it is that people don’t even realize they’re doing Yeah. And like there are those conscious people that very much want to talk about, oh, you know, women doing what they want and women doing whatever and level of love but they’re not really they’re still saying, you know, micro aggressive versus theirs. Still not talking to or even advocating for women that look like other people, you know, like, trying to bring people to their own conclusions has always been a fun exercise for me because it’s such an intimate like, it’s I can’t, you can’t tell yourself that you’re wrong. You’re the one that gave me that answer. I feel like half of it isn’t helping them, get to it themselves. And, you know, that takes time. And that like, this whole thing takes time, and it takes patience, and it takes coming back to the table, and sometimes having to leave the table. Because if you’re going to get defensive, and if you’re like, if that’s suddenly going to be a problem, then the conversation needs to take pause, because you’re not going to get anywhere good. If you’re, you know, victimizing yourself or, you know, immediately. And also talking about why do you feel like a victim? Like, why are you upset? And like, I feel like you feel upset because you now feel like you’ve done something wrong. And maybe that’s correct, but that is also what we’re trying to say. So it is okay, it’s not okay. But the fact that you are acknowledging that if you’ve done something wrong in the past, you have a handle from during the past or you haven’t been doing this the right way. That’s the first step to actually doing it the right way, is acknowledging that you’ve been doing something wrong. It’s not a bad thing. I don’t think that people like to admit their mistakes, and like to admit that they haven’t been exactly perfect. And I think the white feminism world, the white feminism of it all is like you’re being held up like this hero, because you’re a woman in a male dominated sport. And you’re already you’re getting this hero complex and like, you’re getting this weird, I can do no wrong type of mentality where that’s not true, all of us can go do something wrong. So it’s just reminding people that like, it’s not just because you are capable of making mistakes and capable of not seeing outside of your perspective, it doesn’t mean that you’re doing something wrong. And it doesn’t mean that like you are inherently a horrible person trying to tear down everyone else. That’s not like it’s because very dramatic in my mind, but I’m like, it’s not. I feel bad. It’s not that serious. But I mean, it’s not. nobody’s saying like, oh, you’re horrible, and you’re gonna be stripped of your feminist bad, okay? Not real, but

J S 37:51
like, canceled culture, not a thing.

Danielle 37:54
It’s not a thing, you still have a job, you’re still doing fine.

J S 37:59
I think you put that perfectly, especially that they do sort of they hide behind the badge of being a woman. And that’s why I mean, I’m, like, more vocal about racism than I am about sexism and hockey, particularly, because I feel like there are a lot of women who are constantly talking about sexism. But then, you know, you have issue you have instances, like I’ve seen, when the immigrant ban was first introduced, that was not handled well at all. And there were a lot of white women who were kind of on their high horses about it, and I was like, you’re wrong. And then you think about things like john vanbiesbrouck being hired and how many people were silent about that.

Danielle 38:37

J S 38:38
they’re just there are a lot of examples like that. And my line of thinking really is just that I, I believe, I do believe like, it’s okay, if you want to say everyone’s racist, like, you know, immigrants are racist against their own kind, like, it’s a thing, because that’s how society has raised us. So I do think people need to, like take that into account. Like, that’s how you were raised. And I wish that everyone had like unconscious bias training, and there’s a whole that’s a whole that would be so good. Oh, God, that’d

Danielle 39:06
be so great. I feel like that would do so much, because so much of it is like, not accepting the fact that you have an unconscious bias. Like you’re the whole root of it here is you being like, well, racism is a choice. And whatever it was, no, if you’re white and raised in this culture, you have been, like, inherently biased and inherently racist. You are literally shown subliminal messages like that daily. Our culture tells you that you’re better. Like literally there’s so many things we can point to, that leads to a reverse or supremacist mindset. Like it’s not. I think a lot of these words, hold such buyer for people that especially for white people, that they are so taken aback with how Gary Palmieri and dare you say that When I didn’t even I didn’t say, Yeah, I didn’t do anything. It’s like, no, that’s not. I think that there’s a lot of reframing that has to do with, you know, what these words mean, and the fact that, you know, I don’t I think we all need to get on the same page about what these things are and how they present themselves. And a lot of it is listening on their part. And that’s not something that a lot of people are good at. I mean, myself included, I am not good at listening to other perspectives. I’m working on it. But you know, it’s hard, so I get it. But I guess like it again, especially when you have already been declared or decided that you are like a feminist voice in hockey, you’re like, Oh, I can’t get my badge taken away. Now. I’ve already done so much work. He was like, have you done? Like, do you mean, what work have you done?

It’s a good question.

I don’t know. I don’t see any but yeah, it’s, it’s, I feel like it’s always something that sensitivities around all the word choices and what people think words mean, and being able to hear that they’re wrong is a very big part of this. I think unconscious bias training led to a lot. One can hope. only hope.

J S 41:35
I mean, I get Yeah, like, I get the feeling of like, you don’t want to be set like color wrong, or you don’t want to feel ashamed, but just kind of have to accept that that’s what’s going to happen, because this is how society is. So there’s, yeah, you can’t just it’s not going to change instantly.

Danielle 41:50
So you have to, yeah, it’s also, like you said, it’s not gonna change instantly, it’s a process and like, everybody’s got to be pulling their own weight, like I can’t, I can’t change your mind for you. And that is, like, if you’re going to change your mind, you know, that’s good. And that helps us move things forward. So that’s something that you’re just going to want to do, then you have to do the self work. Like I, it’s not just always making other people listen or changing other people’s perspectives. It’s, there’s a lot of self work that has to be done. And continuously done. It’s not a one and done thing. And that’s not a bad thing. It’s not a horrible thing to admit that you need to work on yourself continuously. All of us do. And some of like, it just happens that you have to work on other things, because you are white. That’s just that is going to be the thing. You have very different perspectives and view that a lot of other people.

J S 42:54
Yeah. So it’s kind of circling back to hockey not being ready for this conversation. I feel like I know the answer to this. But I guess for the benefit of our listeners, like, Why would you say that hockey isn’t ready to have that conversation?

Danielle 43:09
I think that I mean, people in hockey can even agree that like black men shouldn’t be called racial slurs in the locker room, like, if you if you can’t even say like, Oh, yeah, blackface is wrong, and he shouldn’t have done that. And that was racist, like, a lot of people in hockey can’t even say the word racist or racism. And immediately when that comes up, it’s just an offshore. So it’s an I think, just in my own perspective, and like my own chalky brains, I just know, so many people that are not willing to put their necks out. Like people are not willing to sacrifice their own popularity or, you know, connections and stuff like that, or the greater goal. I think there’s, like, I just, I don’t think that people are ready to do the work that they think they are, and that they’re calling for other people to do. So when I saw that, I remember you said he has a white friendzone like, what what’s the problem? Like it’s an issue, and I was like, Yeah, they do but like conversations, because suddenly you’re gonna have to call it your friends. You’re not gonna like that, or you’re gonna have to call it your friends and you have to call it yourself. And you’re gonna have to draw a line in the sand of this is not okay. And I’m not going to sit down and let you say these things anymore, or forgive away or explain away what you’re saying and what you’re doing for the 50th time. You know, and it’s it’s going to be interesting. People aren’t ready to take drastic measures of this. Like, if this person has very to take the Portnoy, for example, nobody’s ready to exile that man, they don’t want to, they don’t want to there. Because suddenly, you’re going to be cutting out a big fan base and what, to me, I’m a lot them. But it’s just like the unwillingness to just take such a drastic measure. Which is, I mean, that’s drastic, but like not communicating with someone or uplifting, someone’s worked who is consistently racist. I don’t think that that they’re still gonna have a following. There’s so many plenty people in hockey that are gonna lift up their work, trust me, we’re not getting through this in one night, but like, people have to take a stand and people have to not entertain certain folks, they’re not entertained. You know, we just have, you have to have a bit of backbone here.


And you can’t be you have to push back, push back to the fear, like you really do have to just push past it, if that’s really what you want to do. And that’s really what you believe in and stand up for it. And like it, and that that’s, I don’t think that people in hockey, especially by limited hockey are really ready to do that. I think there’s a very small pool that would, I am privileged enough to call some of them my friends. And, you know, I know that they do and continue to do that stuff. And I’m privy to conversations in private, or in public, that are happening. You know, when it’s just being said, hey, what you just said right here is not okay. And I know you’re kidding, but like, That’s not funny, or, you know, people that are willing to speak up. But I feel like the overwhelming majority of people especially I’m like, not, I don’t like calling it fandom because I feel like a lot of people like to use that term as trivializing, but like, not professional writers, though, that’s a whole different story. Where again, they’re not ready, they don’t want to do it. Because that goes back to connections and getting rid of people that, you know, you’re going to be seen as a hard ass or a Debbie Downer, or you’re going to be someone as divisive as a problem. You don’t want to sacrifice your own success in your own. You don’t want to sacrifice your own shit for the greater purpose. And you don’t share that. on a professional level is whatever, a different conversation but just even just in community dynamics, like the hockey community, I don’t think that people are willing to take such a harsh stand and cut certain people out. Not even cut them out, but just not even give them a blast. And it’s, I mean, that ranges from like, personal relationships to just wanting to be seen by someone that you think is popular, like it just is very, I think we’re all it’s just very lizard brain, but

J S 48:08
it’s a very suck up culture.

Danielle 48:10
It reminds me of high school, and it makes me very tired. And oh, it

J S 48:15
definitely is high school.

Danielle 48:17
It’s just, it’s very aggressive. And I think a lot of people like it doesn’t matter how old you are. Suddenly you are, you know, the head cheerleader, cheerleader getting called out for being mean. And you’re like, I’m not being mean, how dare you call me that? Why would you say that? Yeah. It’s just, it’s all. I think a lot of it is also, it’s not about you. And I don’t think a lot of people are willing to accept that it’s not always about them. And that sometimes, like you have to make decisions that aren’t just about you, if you actually believe in something. Yeah, I don’t I don’t think that people when I saw that, I was like, You know what, I’m like, I’m already I’m already here as opposed to if I really care people are making me mad. I’m just like, this is ridiculous, like watching the same things happen. Every month, like the same person says the same stupid thing, or the same group of people says the same stupid thing. And nobody’s. There’s no like. I think the difference for me is like, what I really liked was I remember, something happened with Gillian Fisher. And you ended up having her on with a Twitter chat. And I really liked that. I think that was very noted a great way of handling the situation. For her. I think she handled that better than other people would, and actually took it from the perspective of I would like to learn and do better. And I would like to understand and I knew Like, that’s something that I don’t think a lot of people would do, especially publicly. Yeah. And I mean, like, there’s still issues like, there’s, you know, all of it is still, there’s a lot going on. But I think there’s also just a lot of people that are going to admit that they’re wrong, and say, Yes, I did do something wrong. And I would like to learn and I would like everybody to know that there’s just so much the left in an ego. It’s just, there’s a lot of ego that is holding a lot of progress back. And

J S 50:39
yeah, you’re absolutely right. And the the popularity thing really killed me, because it’s so true. I mean, I like I think back to before I started saying anything, so I would probably go to like, 2015 before and like, obviously, that was five years ago. So I’m not as I don’t know how to describe it, but I’m a lot more like, outright forthcoming than I was back then. But, you know, I remember from my own experiences, being afraid of upsetting people, because I knew as soon as I said something, that was it. But there are a lot of people who and you know, especially women of color and hockey who have done that, and have taken that burden on themselves and, you know, hurt their possible career choices, because they were fed up with us. And now seeing people who don’t want to say anything, and you know, want to be friends with barstool, and like, it’s just, it’s horrible. And it’s like, exactly true. They don’t want to stop being popular. So they align themselves with certain people. And then that leads to other people who say they’re allies, not calling out people who they’re supposedly friends with who are problematic. And it’s just this never ending cycle of exactly that popularity in high school, and it drives me absolutely insane.

Danielle 52:03
I just I really wish that people would just just have a little bit more backbone, outside themselves just a little bit more. Because, you know, like you said, people that actually has something to lose, are speaking up, and probably losing a lot. And if you spoke up, you probably wouldn’t lose that much. But it’s a risk and reward thing here. Like, we have a lot more to lose as women of color. And that’s just inherently true. And if they like you can’t they can’t understand that. And that’s a whole different conversation.

J S 52:40

Danielle 52:42
Like, if you don’t pick that’s going to hurt chances in, you know, in hockey media, or in sports media in general, then I don’t know what you’re looking at here. Yeah, the problem is like that. Absolutely going to hurt. players get blacklisted for saying something than what is going to stop hockey media from doing the same thing to journalists to podcasters to news anchors to whoever. What would that what would stop them from that? Because that’s also the thing, like it’s a lot of cognitive dissonance of like, they can acknowledge it happening with players, but they will not acknowledge it happening in themselves. Yeah, it has to be an outside thing. And I think a lot of it, like you said, with the popularity, but also, I think there’s so many just because hockey media is also I feel like it’s very, it’s a small circle. And I think a lot of people just don’t. It’s the personal dynamics of like, Well, you know, I know this about this situation. And I know, you know, this history, and I know that this and this and like I To be fair, I don’t really care about the history. I don’t really care about the history, like it’s not that it’s an explanation for sure. It doesn’t explain certain behavior, but it certainly doesn’t excuse it. And it doesn’t give people a path. And it doesn’t suddenly say, Actually, you know what? That racist thing you said, given your history, it probably wasn’t that that. So let me just overlook it. Like, no, this works. That’s not how this works. And like, you know, we’ve all been through stuff. We’ve all been through things, whether you know it or not, and we’re still taking the time to hear other people out that we probably shouldn’t get the time of day. And we’re still able to put something before ourselves instead of explaining something away, because just admit that you don’t want to hold someone accountable or yourself.

J S 54:57
Yeah, I don’t be

Danielle 55:01
If people were to

J S 55:02
admit that I’d actually hate them a lot less than people who don’t want that, that’s what they’re doing.

Danielle 55:07
Yeah, I wish you a lot less if you were to be honest with it, but this is what I mean. Like, if you’re gonna talk to talk to me, like my very few black friends in hockey about this all the time, because it’s like, you know, to I hate this sport? Absolutely. Does this sport hate me? For sure. Watching it and watch it, unfortunately. Like, I am here with eyes wide open and like, you can tell me all you want like, well, if this is how you feel about hockey, then you can just go, you don’t have to watch. You don’t have to come to games like, don’t you think I know then fully aware of what I’m doing to myself here. So just you got to go in eyes wide open. And I need to know that people are at least aware because if you’re just trying to bury your head in the sand, and pretend that this isn’t happening, it just makes me more tired with you. Yeah.

J S 56:09
We’ve officially reached that point where like, if you say that you’re totally full of shit, because at this point, there are enough documented documented incidents

Danielle 56:19
documented. Yeah.


J S 56:27
That’s probably one of my favorite things about fighting with people online, is that my entire camera album on my phone is just filled with screenshots on Twitter, people

Danielle 56:36
think I see what you’re saying and like it doesn’t. What do you mean? You can’t suddenly say, oh, they’re not that bad. It’s like, did we forget? Yeah, people. Forget about this, like x y&z incident, like it’s not Oh, you don’t let people grow? It’s like, No, I do let people grow and learn. But I have not seen any evidence of someone growing and learning, I am not going to suddenly be like, Oh, I just, I hope that they’re growing and learning from this, and I’m getting give them some huge benefit of the doubt. I need. People actually need to see tangible differences in your behavior to actually believe you. When you say, Oh, I’m different, or I’m learning or I’m trying even just using you’re trying, there has been so many times where it’s always the same actors and messing up once again, or getting, you know, finally caught on, you know, on Main, instead of MDM or something, saying something racist or something stupid, and I, and then it’s Oh, well, you know, I’m sorry. And I’m trying and blah, blah, that you literally just did the same thing last month. You’re not trying? You’re not because you were trying you would have at least thought about this. You ever thought before you spoke if you were even trying? Like the MC apologies. And that is what I don’t understand how people work people how they were like, also looked at that kind of stuff. And like, do you have it? You collective memory loss, it’s

J S 58:24
like people get and this is what probably pisses me off, like incredibly pisses me off is like, there was this incident in hockey last year, that was a racist incident. And I happened to be the one with the story. And so for once, I was not saying anything about it, because I was covering it. And I was just looking at people tweeting about it. And people were so mad and like so up in arms, and they were like, this isn’t Okay. And then they all like forgot about it like two weeks

Danielle 58:49
later. Yeah. And I know a lot of people are like, well, you’re there’s so much going on, and not everybody’s life. And I’m like, wait, but this is also going back to the fact that Pocky is not just about hockey. Like there’s a lot. None of this is separate. Like, yeah, I’m so sorry to have to tell you guys this, like everything is kind of a political issue. And like all of this. Not just you can’t just isolate certain topics and certain things and certain issues. They all are interconnected. Whether you like that or not. Yeah, you can’t just suddenly Take it. Take it out.

J S 59:31
Yeah. It’s not like what happens at the rink doesn’t stay at the rink, whether you’re getting your brain BNN or people are like cursing like it doesn’t, that’s part of who you are. You’re not two separate people. It’s not like you put on a skin. When you enter hockey and you take it off, like that’s who you are. It’s you You’re one person that

Danielle 59:52
it is your one person that you can do as well. You know, I was a fat or I said something, it’s the same excuses that we see from Players especially like, oh, the heat of the moment, it’s like, okay, you clearly say that all the time, if it was easy to come to your mouth. Or like it was clearly very easy for you to talk so fully like that. That wasn’t how you usually talk. So you’re not suddenly like, a completely different person like this. You’re still you. And it’s, and I think that’s also kind of going back to like holding people accountable. I think that’s also people don’t realize that them not holding someone accountable does reflect back on them. We see it. It’s not just, it’s not just Oh, I didn’t say that. She said that I’m a Yes, I’m her friend. But like, I didn’t say it. Okay, but you didn’t just sit there and let them say this, and they didn’t say anything back. And you still put up with this. Yeah, still associated with these people that don’t reflect back on you. I know that people don’t like hearing that. But that’s very true. And it’s, you know, people are going to think something of you if you are interacting with this person, or, you know, I think it’s the same thing, especially with keep bringing it back to them. And I’m sure I’m so sorry, if you’re going to have these fools near mentioned. You know, same thing that we see with martial like, Oh, I reversal, that doesn’t mean that I you know, support them and like you give them clicks, you give them visits you get? Yes, you do. Like I don’t I’m friends with this person. But like, I don’t I don’t agree with them. It’s okay to have disagreements with your friends. I think that’s a very large part of associating with away from isn’t hockey is like, Oh, we know, we don’t agree on how to do that. Or like, I know that they’re a good person and how they think but they just don’t say it the right way. Or, you know, I’m working on it. And like, one like, thanks. But also, I think you need to realize at a certain point that like, someone, you can’t help somebody. Yeah, to a certain degree, like, if you’ve been taking years to try to nail into someone’s head, why being racist is bad, then maybe give yourself a break. Not like a small break. But like, that’s kind of what I end up having to tell, you know, other friends of color. And hockey is like, you can’t force somebody to be a better person. Like you. You’ve already done what you can, as a friend or as a colleague, or anything like that, you that they have to pick up where you left off. People have to start teaching and learning for themselves. It can’t just be constant instruction. Yeah. So I yeah.

J S 1:02:58
Yeah, like, I usually tell shows that now I’m like, sorry, I can’t make you be a better person. That’s something you have to do on your own. Goodbye.

Danielle 1:03:04
I there was a article, I printed out this headline, and I taped it to my desk at work last year. And it was I don’t know how to tell you how to care about other people. Oh, yeah,

J S 1:03:17
I remember that.

Danielle 1:03:18
But I truly don’t know how to explain to you that you should care about how you affect or make other people feel. Yeah. I literally do not know how to explain to you. How to be empathetic and sympathetic to people.

J S 1:03:33
Yeah, that’s

Danielle 1:03:35
decent. I can’t I can’t. Yeah, that’s

J S 1:03:41
like, yeah. And it’s like, it’s funny, because I are not funny. But I feel like for women of color, like you mentioned being really wary. I mean, I keep score for sure. Like, in my head. I think everyone kind of watches and they know who’s doing what, who’s saying what, who’s only commenting on certain issues, who’s not holding people accountable like that. We all take note of

Danielle 1:04:05
everything, and I try to say it every time but it just happens so often lately. When all this happens, and like I really hope that y’all know, who I see as being very quiet all the time. Like I I am making notes about who decides that they don’t want to talk about, you know, they don’t want to be ballsy in hockey now. Because it doesn’t have to assess them or it’s going to affect them negatively. If they do say something or they don’t agree and they just don’t talk about it. I do that very often. I’m like, I hope you’ll know why. Because your silence says a whole lot. And it’s always very, I mean at first it was very sad to see I don’t think it is for me anymore. I think it’s just unfortunately expected but i i do very much in my head. Unlike I know who actually speaks up consistently, especially on things that don’t affect them. But I also very much keep track of who I know. And usually I end up on following them or not supporting them anymore, because it’s not. I don’t want to support anybody that’s not going to support me. Yeah. Human beings.

J S 1:05:26
Yeah, that’s definitely fair. And that’s for sure. Like, I mean, I, you’re like the whole disappointment. I think I’m kind of in the same boat where like, at first, it’s kind of just like this sinking feeling when you see something happening. And this person’s not saying anything, and you’re like, well, I thought that person was like, my friend and my ally. They’re not. And then now it’s just like, I don’t, yeah, it’s expected, which is super sad. But there’s, they haven’t shown anything other that they would do anything besides just keep quiet to save their own skin. And it’s really painful. It is,

Danielle 1:06:04
I don’t think people really understand how painful that is, for a lot of us like, especially when you first get into hockey or your first like, at least speaking up more and hot here, realizing what the culture is just how harmful that is to see people that you thought you could trust or that you that at least trusted you and had your back. not say anything. And that’s been I think that at first was really tough. Just watching. A lot of people Be quiet, which is very tough. Very tough.


J S 1:06:42
I think we’ve talked for a while about white feminism, or anything else you want to add.

Danielle 1:06:52
I wanted to tell you that I’m drinking out of a pirate themed glass.

J S 1:06:57
And I love it.

Danielle 1:06:59
I did that in your honor. But


Yeah. But no, I think like I I hope that people continue to have these conversations and folks start to be less afraid.

J S 1:07:16
I feel like pirates were more progressive than hockey players. Well, yeah, it was very different. But I mean, they did have women fighting sometimes on their ships. And they were I feel like they were equally. I don’t, it’s very interesting. Because at the time, like the crossroads of everything, and yeah, it’s very interesting. Anyway, I digress. Well, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it.

Danielle 1:07:49
Of course, thank you for letting me ramble.

J S 1:07:51
Thanks, again to Danielle for joining me, I loved having her on. And I’m also very glad that we had a chance to talk about this because it’s a really important topic. And I think like, you know, has had been mentioned in our conversation that it’s one that a lot of people choose to ignore in hockey. And you know, it’s really not okay, so people need to start talking about this. And you know, you got to hold your friends accountable, you got to hold yourself accountable. So I hope that you are able to take away something from this so that you can further you know, better yourself and make hockey better for other people. So that will do it for this week. If you have questions, comments, concerns, please tweet at me. If there’s a topic you’d like addressed, please let me know. This actually, this white feminism one was requested. So always happy to talk about white feminism, and pretty much happy to talk about anything. So if you have any topics you’d like to hear about, definitely let me know. I hope that you all are taking care of yourselves. I know that this is still hard, but hang in there. And that’ll do it for this week. So I’ll see you all next week.

Transcript: Episode 60

Hi, everyone, welcome to this dicta sports podcast. I’m your host, Jashvina. Shah, it’s nice to speak to you all for the first time. And who knows how many months, I know it’s been a while. First off Happy World, juniors Eve. This is kind of this is probably going to be short. But I really wanted to talk about world juniors before it starts. I was actually going to record this yesterday, but then I got sick. If you can’t tell by my voice, I’m still kind of under the weather. So just bear with me. Obviously, the podcast is kind of in hiatus because of the book evident I did send our manuscript in about a month ago, which are a little over a month ago. But there’s still a lot of work to do with that and edit. So it’s been pretty busy, but in a good way. I hope everyone’s you know, hopefully, you all are staying safe and healthy. You know, I know this is just a horrible time for everyone. So and you know, speaking of it being a horrible time for everyone, I’d really want to talk about oral juniors and what the hell is happening with World juniors? So for those of you who follow my podcast, or follow me, but don’t necessarily know what will juniors is, or doesn’t really follow hockey very closely. World juniors is basically like, the most important thing in the world, to people who I don’t know to people who follow hockey people of all prospects like, and it’s the one time of the year we’re, like grown adults get way too invested in the outcomes of things that 18 and 19 year olds are doing. Because it’s, it’s ridiculous. But it’s basically the World Championship for under 20 players, for players who are under 20 years old. And hockey. And it’s really big. Like, it’s especially if you cover prospects, but it’s just like, really, really big. It’s especially like the US Canada rivalry. But you also you have a lot of kids and major juniors and you have a lot of kids for college hockey that are playing. So for me, it’s important because I mean, you know, these are the players that I cover. These are the players that I knew when I was in school. And so I’ve always been really, really keyed in with World juniors. And it is my favorite sporting event period. Like I care more about world juniors and I care about the Olympics, or any other hockey tournament, except for maybe the Frozen Four, but I don’t know if that counts, we’re just gonna table off for now. But anyway, I love the world juniors now. Unfortunately, like I mentioned earlier, world, juniors is still happening. It is world juniors Eve, and it’s it’s going to start tomorrow, which is fantastic, because everything is just not good right now. And you know, I mean, the world juniors has essentially been falling apart there are Alright, so here’s the deal. COVID is basically, you know, wreaking havoc, obviously, with these teams and with these players so you know, Team Canada was ended up being quarantined because someone had tested positive. You know, there are Germany, I think had eight players test positive, like the teams were sharing flights on the way over to Canada, because Canada is hosting this year, which Canada wasn’t like they had to change it because they still wanted to have world juniors, which is inexplicable to me why, but they’re so obsessed with fitting it into this timeline of doing it the same time it happens every year. Even though COVID is just spreading like crazy throughout these teams and throughout these players, and I can’t no world juniors is always like, so here’s the thing about sports, which I’m I’m sure most of you know, I think it’s very relevant in hockey. I’m sure it’s relevant in other sports, but it’s so political. And I don’t mean political isn’t everyone supports Trump. I mean, political isn’t. You have to be nice with the governing bodies, or your chances at playing on a national team are slim to none. And I mean, if you, you can’t, you can’t go if you’re a player and say, Hey, I’m not going to play in your tournament. Like, I can go to USA hockey and be like, no, because guess what, that’s not going to end well for me. So that’s not an option. Players can. And I was actually writing a story about this from a kings hockey because I was talking to Ivy League players and they’re not playing and, you know, it’s really easy to sit here and say like, Okay, um, you don’t play hockey because it’s not good. We’re in the middle of a pandemic, which is true. It’s not but it’s not up to the kids. Like you can’t tell, you know, a kid who’s playing who’s, I don’t know, 17 1819 years old, who’s playing who’s been drafted, who hasn’t been drafted but wants to play after, you know, after they’re done with major juniors or after they’re done with school or wherever they are, who wants to continue their career because if they don’t play For a year, that’s it, their career is over. Like they don’t have a choice. You know, and I was talking to Harvard’s goaltender Mitch Mitchell Gibson, and he was, you know, I was telling him the same thing, like, you know, he’s a goalie he needs to develop, he can’t afford to miss a year. You know, you just can’t do that. Because you’re the whole, the whole hockey is so competitive. And everyone Pun intended is looking for that extra edge that, you know, people go to all which is a whole other story. But people go through all these things like skill camps, and you know, whatever crazy stuff they do, they pay money for and they’re obsessed with like specific gyms and like, they need to have all these like workout routines, and they need to be able to do this. And then each workout in the summer, like there are all these things that people need to do to be competitive and to be at the top of their game. And unless you’re like, I don’t know, a generational star. And I mean, like Wayne Gretzky, I don’t mean like how now every year, we seem to have a generational star, which isn’t how that works. But even then, like you can’t miss a year, but you just can’t be isn’t your whole future is going to get waylaid. And what you wanted out of your future is going to happen. And you can’t tell you know, you can’t tell an 18 year old kid who wants to play hockey professionally, like, you shouldn’t play because it’s safe for everyone if you don’t, but you need to make that decision. You can’t ask them to make that decision. You know, the adults have to be the ones to make that decision. Unfortunately, we seem to not have adults at the IHS because no one’s making that decision. No one’s putting their foot down and saying this tournament can’t happen. It at least cannot happen right now, at this moment. can it happen at a later date? Possibly. But it there’s absolutely no reason why right now, when cases especially are spiking. Here, I mean, I’m in the US in the US, but in Canada to bars where they’re hosting the tournament. There’s no reason for it to be being held right now. Like it’s absolutely crazy. And like forget about the players and not being able to say no, or having to go or, you know, what about the staff that also doesn’t have a choice in this, you know, the staff is also being put at risk. And you know, we talk so much about people, not we but you know, people like to say oh, they’re athletes will be fine. But one, we don’t know that too. We know that’s not actually true, they can very well not be fine. But we don’t know other long lasting effects getting COVID might have. And for like, at the end of this at the end of all of this, what the hell is the point of going through all this and all the quarantines and all the rules and all the testing protocols for a tournament that’s going to be half assed anyway. Because you’re not even going to have the same caliber of players in the same amount of players or teams that you would normally have. What is the point of doing that? You’re putting everybody at risk, you’re making everyone go through hell. For something that’s not even what world juniors is, whereas you could have just waited for everyone safety and for the integrity of the tournament, if that’s what you care more about them people safety and hosted at a later date. It is absolutely unconscionable to get up there and say that 18 and 19 year old kids have to play in this tournament. And like I said before, I mean, no, technically they don’t, quote unquote, have to, but they can’t say no, they really can’t. And again, it’s everyone’s looking for the edge, that extra edge, you need everything you can get. It’s not as simple to say it’s like, it’s not safe for me by you can’t really do that. I mean, and you know what, like, I was a college kid, and I cover games. Well, I had like the flu and stuff like that. Because, one, I loved it. And I was a college, I was kid, you know, like I was gonna do anything. Like I tell people this example all the time. Like, you can’t ask a kid to not do something that they want to do. Okay, let’s say that they Okay, safety aside. Let’s say that they still want to go, you know, I went scuba diving with a blocked ear. And I almost died. Because I was 20 years old. And I was at the Great Barrier Reef and it was a once in a lifetime opportunity. And there was no way that if you gave me that choice, which they did, they gave me that choice. They said, See, if you feel comfortable doing this, that I was going to say no to going scuba diving at the Great Barrier Reef. It’s the same thing. They’re not going to say no, if it’s something they really want to do, even if it’s not safe for them, their kids, someone has to make that decision and it shouldn’t be up to them. It has to be up to the ihf to say this isn’t safe, we’re not doing it. And for some reason, no matter how many people catch COVID they’re just married to the fact that we’re gonna have the world juniors and it’s, it’s really unconscionable to be putting 1819 year old kids through this. Like, I mean, you shouldn’t be putting anyone through this but they’re kids. They’re really kids. You know, and as a His world juniors is crazy with like, sorry, I shouldn’t say crazy world juniors is like wild in terms of like adults, you know, harassing teenage kids online. Like, seriously, like, it’s bad if you’re not, if you’re not familiar with juniors like it gets bad. You know, like, if Canada doesn’t win gold, like it’s bad. But I mean, you know, these kids are like, You’re, you’re quarantining them, and then, you know, some kids are being quarantined, and then you’re sending them home, because you’re cutting them from Camp like that happened. And like, how horrible is that? You come here, someone gets infected with COVID. We make you quarantine for 14 days, and then we cut you anyway. Like, it’s just terrible, you know, or you’ve kids that are getting sick and have to quarantine and can’t play. And it’s like, you know, you have kids, it’s just ridiculous. I mean, then you even look at like, here, you know, looking at the US team, like there was a positive test at BU, within the team, be a player, a member of the staff. And because of that three kids who were going to go to camp couldn’t go. And it’s like, you know, maybe not all of them had a shot at the team. But, you know, for the they still they’re not gonna get that chance. And this could have all been avoided. You know, and looking at Wisconsin, you know, Caulfield’s there Cole Caulfield is there, but Wisconsin hasn’t played in a while because of positive tests. And things are not great at Wisconsin right now. And it’s just, you know, like, the borders are close, the borders are closed, and they’re making all these exceptions for a tournament that really does no one any good whatsoever. Like at all. And I can’t, I mean, I love world juniors more than anything in the world. Like, I love it to death. But I shouldn’t even say that, I shouldn’t even phrase it like that. But I care a lot about the tournament. And I love it. I do, but how can we be so selfish? How can the ihf be so selfish, and you know, I keep seeing people out there, like, they’ll be fine, but it’s not just their lives, you know, it’s the lives of them, possibly their families, definitely the staff. But again, like we don’t know, the the effects is gonna have and if they get really sick, and you know, the hospitals already overburdened. And that’s the thing like I, you know, I have, I have friends, my parents have friends who are doctors, and you know, knowing them get seeing them get sick, because other people aren’t taking precautions, and other people are increasing the spread of COVID. And seeing them get sick and having to pay for someone else’s selfishness is really hard. It’s really hard to see. And I mean, there’s just there’s no reason that the tournament should be being helped right now. Like, at all. It’s ridiculous. And it’s just, it’s not safe. And it doesn’t even make sense because the tournament’s not even gonna be like, you know, it’s not even a real tournament anymore, because they’re like, yeah, we need we need eight teams during the tournament. But it’s just, it’s not like I don’t know, I can’t I mean, I know because I’ve been in the space for so long that athletes are treated like commodities. And I and I know because I talked extensively about this in the book, athletes are treated like commodities. And think at the end of the day, like, you know, you look at something like kids are gonna play for concussions. You know, they’re gonna lie about it and play their concussions because they love playing the game and because it’s what they’ve been taught to do and because the top that if they don’t play, then they risk not having a future in this war. In the sport, sorry. So I mean, obviously, they’re still gonna go try and play it world juniors, but then you know, what about, you know, we love to say that sports is great for kids and their mental health, which is the argument I see a lot of people use now. But like, Listen, can you explain to me In what world it’s good for players mental health to go to world juniors camp, get stuck in quarantine and then be cut from camp and sent home? Like, how is that? How? You know, and for the kids who are genuinely scared of catching COVID How is that safe? how, you know, like, teams were sharing flights on the way to Canada. Not great. You know, Germany has like a it’s like ridiculous, the amount of positive tests that are floating around and the likelihood I just, I don’t know like it’s it could be like an even bigger disaster than it already is in terms of people being sick. And I really do not want to see that. And it makes me think of, I mean, it’s not anywhere the same thing, but it makes me think of the outdoor game. And we’ll walk with got her while playing in it. And it’s like, nothing’s like that they do because they want to do them or because they think it looks cool or because like, that’s just how, you know, hockey organizations run things like, but they don’t care about the actual safety of the players. And I mean, I can’t even please don’t get me started on resources being used, and you know, where they’re being allocated. Because, first of all, I don’t think any sport should be being played right now. Not for anything else for the fact that the resources need to be going to society as a whole and not to like sports teams to play or like professional sports. It’s, it’s just, I’m worried about the players, I’m worried about the staff. I mean, the easy decision, and it would have been like a sensible decision to just say, we’re gonna postpone it, not even, we’re gonna cancel it, just we’re gonna postpone it. Because right now, at this point in time, the way cases are spiking, you cannot hold it. But and then, you know, sports likes to go above and beyond in terms of the rules don’t apply to us. So we’re gonna get special permission and all that garbage. And it’s really upsetting. It’s really upsetting to see celebrities like this being taken. Given that, we see cases spiking. And given, like I mentioned, you know, the people who work at the hospital, hospitals and our essential workers and our frontline workers whose lives are being put in danger, because of other people. It’s really unconscionable. It’s just, it’s negligent and unconscionable, and I, I can’t believe it’s happening, because this is what hockey is, but like, you know, for me, I just feel like I’m gonna forget, like, I’m not gonna watch because I will watch but it’s like, you shouldn’t be here. You know, how can you enjoy, like, as a fan can enjoy it. I’m watching as a reporter, so it’s just, it’s bad. But I wanted to share some thoughts about how I feel about world juniors because, Ah, well, long sigh everything is terrible, pretty much. But I hope you all have a wonderful holiday. I do have an episode that I had recorded with Leah Frazier, which hopefully i’ll post sometime next week. Other than that, I think the podcast is going to kind of be sort of, not doesn’t have it won’t have a set schedule until the book is like really finished, because there’s just a lot of different look. Oh my god, I can’t even speak. There’s a lot to do now in terms of, you know, editing and stuff like that. And, you know, who knows I have a puppy for those of you who don’t know, so, I don’t know, everything’s pretty tied up right now. But anyway, I appreciate you all still sticking with me through all of this. And for listening to this, and if you’re not familiar of world, juniors, I mean, it’s a fantastic tournament. I love it. I’m very sad to see what’s happening right now. And I really just hope that everyone else who’s there, stay safe about it. Your questions, comments, concerns if you’d like to see a topic spoken about or addressed. Please hit me up. My Twitter is at ice hockey stick. Easy to remember. And yeah, I hope you all have a wonderful holiday. I guess for those of you who do celebrate Happy Christmas Eve Merry Christmas Eve. I don’t know. I celebrate Christmas but I’m not Christian. So there you go. Happy Hanukkah. Happy. Whatever you celebrate. I celebrate the volley. It happened a month ago. So hey, but have a good New Year. Hopefully 2021 will be much better than 2020

Prompt: Defenseman

Adam’s mother closed the door behind them. His father was off on a business trip, and Adam was content to sit on the couch until his mother addressed him. She worked long hours in the city, and was fone more than his father. Adam preferred it this way. His father could be strict, but his mother was terrifying.

She came back from the kitchen, drink of water in her hands. Her red blouse was still tucked into her black pencil skirt, her heels finally getting kicked off.

“What the hell is going on?”

“I told you mom. I don’t know. I barely even know the guy.”

“Clearly since you were the last one seen fighting with him. And clearly since pparently you’ve been at his house multiple times to party?”

Adam shifted. “You know how it is, everyone just goes to someone’s house,” he mumbled.

“Excuse me?” She said. “No I don’t ‘know how it is.'” What do you think this is? Some kind of trash town we dumped you in so you can smoke and do coke?”

“Mom! It wasn’t even coke ok. I just drank. Whatever he had, I don’t know. And for the record yeah this kind of is a trash town. A lot of kids have nothing else to send their money on but drugs.”

Silence. Finally, “don’t talk back to me. Ever.”

HE hung his head. “Sorry mom.”

“I’m so embarassed and ashamed. And now you could be arrested.”

“Arrested? Mom I didn’t do anything! And you said they didn’t have enough evidence to hold me!”

“Did you — and I am only going to ask you this one, so you had better answer truthfully — have anything to do with that boy’s death?”

“No mom, I swear.”

She sighed and ran a hand through her hair. “Go to your room.”

Not bothering to argue, Adam slithered up the stairs and went into his room, closing the door behind him. He pulled his phone out of his pocket, thankful that at least in all of this, she’d forgotten to take it from him.

The lock screen was bursting with notifications. He was about to unlock his phone when the window rattled. Adam looked outside.

It was Joshua, one of Marcsus’ defensemen.

Prompt: Forward

Before Adam opened his mouth, his mother spoke. “If you are not charging my client with anything, I suggest you let him go.”

Adelray looked at their watch. “We can hold him –”

“We have time,” Olander said. “And we can sit here all night.”

Adam pulled at the sleeve of his sweater.

“He has no comment,” his mother said, leaning back in her chair.

“All we’re asking is a simple question,” Orlander said. “You were the last person to see him alive. And we head it wasn’t a pleasant conversation.

“How do you know that?” She said.

“We can’t share details of the investigation, ma’am,” Adelray said.

“Nothing,” Adam said. “It was nothing.”

“Adam,” his mother said.

“No mom. This is dumb. It was just a stupid fight from that stupid party. Rick, one of the forwards on our team, left without telling me and I was mad and I just yelled at Marcus for it. That’s all.”

“Where did you see him?” Orlander said.

“At a party. Friday night.”


“You yelled at Marcus because of Rick?” Adelray said.

“Ok fine. We were fighting over some dumb girl. Some girl that Rick liked and Marcus liked and Marcus was being an ass.” Adam tapped his hands on the table. “Marcus was always an ass. I can’t be the only one who’s ever yelled at him.

“Plus,” Adam said, avoiding his mother’s eyes, “Kid was a total party animal. I rarely went to his place but I’ve heard he deals in drugs. Like hard drugs. Whatever it was, I didn’t kill him.”

Adelray leaned forward. “Witnesses say you were very distant at the game you played the next night.”

“That was nothing. I just saw something and had a brain fart. Come on this is dumb. I didn’t do anything.”

His mother gripped his arm. “Either you charge my son with something or we are leaving. And I know you don’t have enough evidence to charge him.

“We still have plenty of time,” Adelray said.

“He can go,” Olander said, gathering up the folder. “For now. But we will have to ask for him again so we can finish our questioning. But it’s late. Go home. Go to sleep. We’ll probably call you tomorrow.”

When Adam and his mother left the room, Adelray turned to Olander. “Why did you let him go?”

“It’s late and he’s tired.

Prompt: Goaltender

Detective Olander sat down next to his partner, Adelray. Adelray had fire-red hair cut cropped to their shoulder, while Olander had black hair cropped close to his hair. Adelray was young; Olander was not as young.

“Well?” Adam’s mother sat with her arms folded. A criminal defense lawyer, She had driven down to the rink and yelled at the detectives for approaching her son without her knowledge.

“Mom, it’s okay,” Adam said. He’d been given no time to shower, so his hair was slicked close to his head and his body odor was trapped in the small interrogation room. “I didn’t do anything wrong.”

“We hope not,” Adelray said.

Olander placed a folder on the table. He opened it, pulled out some pictures and slid them in front of Adam. One was a headshot of a boy Adam’s age.

It was Marcus, the goaltender from Ridgehigh, their rival school.

Adam flitted his eyes upward. “Yeah I know him. Every hockey player here does. We’ve all either played together or against each other.”

“Surely you can’t be implicating my son in whatever this is,” his mother flicked the mugshot photograph.

Adelray took it back. “Of course not,’ they said.

“We are however,” Olander said, reaching back into the folder, concerned about this.” He pulled out three more photos and slid them to Adam.

It was hard to tell that any of these pictures were of Marcus. Adam leaned in closer, then grabbed the pictures and threw them in the direction of the detectives. He leaned under the table, grabbed the trash can and threw up.

“Surely you can’t be serious to show a child this?” His mother said.

“Child?” Adelray raised an eyebrow. “Adam is what, 17? Hardly what I would call a child.”

“This is bullshit,” she said. “My son and I are leaving. Can’t you see how disgusted he is by these?” She picked up the pictures. “This is horrible. But clearly my son is as shocked as I’m sure you are.”

“Of course,” Adelray said, gathering the pictures and putting them back in the folder. “We can see he is clearly… upset.”

His mother shook his head as she leaned over and patted Adam’s back. Come on honey, let’s go home.”

“Before you do,” Olander said. “We have to ask your son a question.”

“I think you’ve used up your questions,” she said.

“Why,” Adelray said, ignoring his mother, “were you the last person to see Marcus alive?”


Prompt 3: Shot

Adam lined up to take his shot. One of his teammates skated by and yelled at him. “Do you see something in the stands buddy?”

“Yeah, another teammate said. “Maybe it was a hot girl

The shot went wide.

“Enough, boys,” the coach said.

“Yes,” Adam said as he turned around. “I had a moment. Ok? I messed up.”

The rest of the team started filing off, their ice time over. But Adam grabbed a puck and teed it up for another shot. This time it went in.

Max skated by and patted him on the shoulder. “It’s okay, man, they’re just messing around.”

“I know.” Adam grabbed another puck. “I just feel like such an idiot.”

“Boys,” their coach called. “We have to get off the ice. Time’s up.”

“Yes Mr. Duffy,” Max said. He bent down and picked up the loose puck. “We’d better go before we get yelled at. Or something.”

“Or something,” Adam said.

The two boys took off their helmets and skated off the ice, marching up the ramp that connected the rink to the locker rooms.

Max held open the door. “Seriously man, what did you see?”

“I don’t know.” Adam paused once Max followed him inside. “Something was just different. And strange. Like,” he glanced around to see who was watching. Satisfied that the few people in the waiting area were not the least bit concerned, Adam turned back to Max. “Have you ever had like an out-of-body experience?”

“Dude,” Max laughed. “You’re kidding, right?”

“Not like, in the literal sense. That’s just what it felt like. Like I was super dazed. I don’t know. It’s not a big deal. It’s just now like my parents are worried.”

“They think you’re under too much stress and maybe they’re right.”

“Why? Because I have some AP classes?”

The waiting area was much warmer than the outdoor rink, and Adam could no longer see his breath. Max narrowed his eyes. “Dude come on you know that’s not why. The other guys might joke around and all, but it’s different. I know…”

“It’s nothing like that, I promise.” Adam started walking toward the locker room and was about to grab the door handle when someone walked beside him.

“Adam Hoover?”

He looked at the tall police officer. “That’s me?”

“We have to take you into the station for some questioning.”

“What?” Max said.

“Wait,” Adam said. “Why? What’s happening?”

The locker room door opened, almost hitting Adam. Mr. Duffy stepped out and wedged himself between the child and the officer. His glasses framed a youthful face, short black hair stiff with the cold.

“Officer, this young man is a minor, as I’m sure you’re very well aware.”

“I am, Mr….”

“Mr. Duffy.”

“Mr. Duffy. And I will call his parents to the station, of course.”

“You will not take him without an adult present,” Mr. Duffy said.

The locker room door vibrated and some of the boys poked their heads out, some only half dressed.

“Go back inside, boys,” Mr. Duffy ordered.

Their social studies teacher, Mr. Duffy had been strict but fun. None of the boys had every seen him angry. But now his face twisted in unimaginable ways as he kept the officer from even looking at Adam.

“If you want to take the boy in,” Mr. Duffy said. “You have to call his mom here and have her go with you. Otherwise I’m not letting him go.”


Prompt: Icing

Payal chewed her nails as she looked at the T.V. “Damnit,” she said as the Predators iced the puck. She threw the wet rag on the table and frowned.

“Please, don’t curse while you’re on a shift.” It was her manager, blond-haired Becca. Becca was just a year older than Payal, a senior in their high school. But much like her hair, everyone considered her golden. Payal nodded as she tugged at her TGIF’s shirt, noticing how ill-fitting it was on her but well-fitting it was on Becca.

“Sorry, Becca,” Payal finished sweeping the crumbs off the table. It was a Wednesday night so the place was empty, unless the chairs were occupied by ghosts. Which, it probably was. She leaned against the table and turned back to the TV, aware that her inattention to work would earn her another scolding. But there was nothing to do anyway.

Bells clanged as the door opened. Putting on her best smile, Payal turned around. And then she frowned.

It was some of the boys from the hockey team.

Payal was surprised they were out this late. Wait, no, she wasn’t. Keeping her smile on, she walked over to the door.

“How can I help you?”

It was a group of boys from her grade — Max, Lyle, Ankit, Sol and Adam. Max smiled. Adam hung in the back, unsurprising after his gaffe had cost the team the game last night.

“Just you five?”

“Yeah,” Max said. The charmer of the group, with his dimple, neat black hair and deep brown skin. He was the only one of the group who knew how to socialize and act normal.

“Well,” she gestured behind her, “it’s pretty empty so… is there one place you want to sit?”

Max shrugged. “Anywhere is fine.”¬†She just stared at him.¬†Ankit pointed to a table near the door. “There, Max said, “We’ll sit there.”

Payal nodded, gathered menus and walked to their table. She shifted back to the cash register and chewed on a nail as she watched them. Adam seemed like a normal human being, no starry eyes or lack of awareness.

Still, she wondered what he’d seen.

Because she’d seen it too.


Adam watched the puck in the referee’s hands. It was so small, yet so large. Large enough for the players to spot, large enough for them to snap it up on their sticks.

He bent his knees further, hunching his back over the spot where the puck would be in seconds. But just as he was directing his eyes downward, a flicker of light from the stands distracted him.

It wasn’t from a camera, though. Adam knew what light from the flash of an obsessed hockey parent looked like. So without thinking, he straightened up.

The puck dropped to the ice.

But Adam could no longer see nor hear anything, his eyes focused on the space where the light, where the whatever it was, had come from.

He didn’t even notice the other team scoring, their celebration just pieces of peripheral vision.

Something was there.

He knew it.

So he dropped his stick and marched over to the other end.

He couldn’t even hear his teammates, his coaches or the referees trying to stop him.

It wasn’t until he walked over and touched the glass where it all stopped and he remembered where he was.

There was a hand on his shoulder. He turned around.

Marc, his captain, was saying something. His helmet was tiled up, unstrapped, the cage bent open. “Hey man. What’s going on? Are you okay?”

Adam shook his head and then nodded it. “Yeah I’m fine. I just, I just…”

“You just what?”

“I just thought I saw something strange. I don’t know what got over me.” Adam unstrapped his own helmet, tilted the cage up and took it off.

“Man, you must be really stressed.”

Adam looked at the scoreboard. It was now tied, 1-1. “Crap, did I do that?”

“Well, you lost the faceoff. But the rest of the team also didn’t prevent it from happening, so. I don’t know. You must be really stressed out. Maybe you should…”

Adam shook his head. “No. It’s fine. I know. I am stressed. But I want to play. He would — he would want me to play too.”

Patting Adam on the shoulder, Marc nodded before he skated away. With two minutes left in the game, Adam secured his helmet and skated back to the bench.