Hi, everyone. Welcome
J S 0:01
to this week’s edition of stick to sports. I’m your host Jashvina Shar. So for this week I spoke with I’m actually very excited for this podcast because it’s about my favorite topic ever. But I spoke with Danielle, who is a co host on mother puckers podcast, which is a flyers centered podcast. And we had a great conversation about white feminism in hockey. She has a lot of really great points that are all like spot on. So I’m just going to go straight to that interview. And I hope that you all enjoy. How did you get into hockey?
That’s really weird. I didn’t. So I grew up in the Philadelphia area. I grew up like hearing about hockey. Mostly by Winston. Unfortunately, Harvard didn’t really freak me out. My mom grew up in Philly. So it was just knowing where the sports arenas where she was like, we do not go down there. Like it’s already a very, there’s already I feel like I grew up with it already being in a very like racist light. Just because of the area in Philadelphia, where everything like sports related happens. South Philly hasn’t always been so kind of isn’t the kind of place minorities. It’s obviously gotten better since my mom was growing up in Florida. But that’s where her trepidation came from. And then it kind of got passed on to me. I pretty much found hockey through friends like I started seeing online and I love the contact sport. I’ve played sports myself. So you know, I love the speed. I love the contract. And it was really fascinating to me. And I don’t I don’t think I really got into it until I watched it a hotel was on a work trip. And they accreditor scene was on and pgcbl still with them. And I ended up watching and i just i couldn’t move. I was just so enthralled with it. And then I ended up moving to DC actually during the capitals cup run. So that kind of was blacking out. Kaplan will do that to you. But yeah, I mean, since then, like I I’m mostly just a big fan of the sport and not like a hardcore team person. Like, I like pretty much almost all the metro teams. It gets rough for me personally. But, you know, I have made so many good friends. And it’s been a wild ride. It’s certainly been interesting.
J S 2:27
Yeah, I was kind of the same way. Like I just started watching on TV. And that was it like, so how did what was your experience, like when you went to your first game?
It was actually really interesting. I was really nervous. I, I kind of decided on the land was really bad day at work. And I had a friend there who was also from the Philadelphia area, and we talked hockey pretty often. And we both had a really crappy day. And I was like, Alright, I want to go to my first game. And if you and she’s a white woman, and I was like, my only trepidation about this is like, if a racist tries to yell at, you have to help me fight. If you’re not gonna help me, then I don’t want to. And she was like, Oh, absolutely, let’s go. So I trusted her and I needed guidance, I knew that if I was going to go to a game, I would have to go with someone that I trusted or just somebody that like would have my back if something were to happen just because I don’t trust white people, especially white men. So we went and it was actually really awesome. It was a it was the captain’s times playoff series. So it was a very intense game. ended up making friends with a very nice Canadian man next to me, who was very shocked that we knew so much about hockey, which was, you know, expected and annoying all at once. And it was actually just a really nice experience. I don’t know if it’s just playoff hockey or, you know, I’ve never had a bad experience in Capital One. So maybe it’s bad as well, I don’t really know. But it was it was a lot more community driven than I expected. I mean, I’m still moving through the arena, as you know, as a minority and still as somebody who is I was looking over my shoulder and it was like, paying attention to what was around me. I was very hyper vigilant as usual. But, you know, it was it was shocking how comfortable I felt. Which is very interesting as a first experience, because the rest of my experience has been here.
J S 4:35
Yeah, I feel I think that is interesting because like you You were hyper vigilant. I feel like when I first started I was just I mean I was also like 16 and kind of God knows my head in the clouds 15 or whatever. So like, like all this stuff just went over my head because I was not a very smart child. And then now it’s like every second I can go through an arena without like thinking all of this stuff. Just like yeah, just like compounds and it just, I don’t know, if it’s because you just notice more as like, the longer you’re around, but that seems to be the case with a lot of people is like, it gets progressively worse. And I like, yeah.
You just ended up noticing more and more and like, I just it’s just the more arenas I guess it as well like you, you notice like what arenas you feel okay and in what situations you feel watched and in what situations, you know, like you feel the need to be hyper vigilant. And I mean, especially, I feel like it’s also because like, the more that you’re into the sport, and what do you pay attention. Unfortunately, the more you see about what happy culture is like, so, you know, the games might be really fun and like the environments exciting and stuff like that. And like that’s, I feel like that’s what a lot of people get stuck on is like, well, how can I see that? If you know, you love going to games like you love with the environment. You love the sport you love? I’m like I do. But that doesn’t mean that doesn’t happen in a vacuum. That doesn’t mean that the entire hockey experience stays inside of the arena. Yeah.
J S 6:14
You can’t like separate hockey from it’s like, it’s all one thing together. You can’t just separate it from everything else, which Yeah, I think that a lot of people kind of miss that. Because it’s like, Yeah, I love hockey. But also, it’s just everything around, like the game itself is fantastic. And there are things like outside of it, like you mentioned, the community and there’s certain spaces and rings that are always going to feel like home. But then there’s all this other stuff around it. That’s just really crappy.
And I remember like I spent a while I had found a good group of friends within hockey. And I, I was fine. And then I remember, I started doing motherfuckers and the cricket with this woman’s name was actually Kim Smith, baby, the statue and a racist statue. And he’s still
J S 7:12
not the God bless America. Okay, yeah.
And that was the first time that I knew I had already known and like I, especially having kind of just like being aware of hockey and hockey culture. During the 2016 election in the United States, like I, I obviously knew certain things, and I knew about certain players, and I knew who I wasn’t going to touch and I knew I knew certain things, and I still mess it. But I think that was the first time that I was one directly. I guess there was just like, it wasn’t just a personal thing for me anymore. I was really in it. So that happens, and it kind of kind of brought me back to reality. It’s like, okay, now this is, yes, you are getting comfortable. But like, that is not something that we can really afford to do. And especially because like we I mean, it’s not a large platform, but like just being able to talk and knowing flyers fans, especially like Philadelphia fans, like they don’t want to talk about that. And like hearing the responses to that can be taken down. And it was just a lot. And it was very, it was very clarifying. And it was very frustrating. And I think ever since then it’s been a very, like, I haven’t forgotten that. They will remind you if you forget.
J S 8:32
Yeah, like the 16 election seem to just be like, because you always knew but then all of a sudden everyone was being really public about where they stood. And it’s just like, you’re on an island. It was like you’re on a little you’re on ice and then ever all the ice around you cracks and now you’re on you’re on your own little island of ice is like what I feel like it is. Yeah. And then you mentioned kind of, you know, it being frustrating, that whole experience, but did you have like any anxiety because like, I know certain people? It’s just, it’s very, like anxiety inducing to be in that position.
Yeah, I mean, it was very frustrating. It was it interesting, especially because, you know, we didn’t talk about it on the podcast and like, we we were not at that point like and I mean, at any point we’ve never really pulled any punches and like we’re very honest about the very honest dialogue like me, a comedian, another white woman or two white women. So I I am very honest. I am very honest about my spot in it and I’m very honest about you know, before when we were talking about it, I was like, I would like to talk about this i don’t i don’t think that you guys should talk about this because it’s really not your legacy, not really your place and like it doesn’t affect you. So, you know, you can add on after if you want to, but I’m gonna I’m gonna run this because This is not something that I feel comfortable with you touching. And like, if that’s going to be the way that it isn’t, I don’t really want to do this. And we’ve always operated in that way. And it’s always been a very open space. And I’ve never felt uncomfortable with the two of them. I was very, I was encouraged to speak my mind. And like, they wanted to hear it, as you know, as people that are trying to consistently do better, and also hold other people accountable. They were trying to, like make sure that I could say my piece, but it was extremely anxiety inducing. I knew I needed to be the one talking, but I also knew that that would be probably very targeting. Roughly, it wasn’t that I know of nothing I saw, and I don’t really pay attention
to July. So as far as I know, nobody really had the gall to say anything publicly. I mean, got over it, but it was really anxiety inducing. And it was really, especially seeing like, I think it was worse, because I’ve been watching for days, right? People get attacked on Twitter about this, and like, braided and you get sent death threats. And I was like, if there’s any left to right people, what the herd name is gonna be what they like here, if you’re attacking, you know, people that you see as good an ass or is equal to you. What do you say to me? And I mean, that’s just something you kind of have to come to terms with before you speak up and just be like this might happen. And if it does, and we’re gonna deal with this. I mean, 30 anxiety, like, I was able to say something and speak up a bit and give a quote from my friends who was writing something and, you know, try and say my piece. But it was really, it was very scary, just because I don’t, you know, it’s kind of just an unpredictable arena, especially when you’re dealing with people on social media. People get absolutely out of their avatar tree, and don’t really remember them.
J S 12:10
Yeah, and if you haven’t dealt with it, it’s not really something that’s understandable. Like, I don’t know how to describe that to someone. But it’s just like, and the target and the target on your back thing like I that I think is a perfect way of phrasing it.
I’m sure you are very
J S 12:32
It’s not great. I’m actually at that point where like, now it doesn’t bother me
anymore, which I don’t think it’s a good
thing. Why are you live?
J S 12:49
Yeah, part of me is probably dead, but like, I can’t help it. Like I see people saying things and then I’ll fight with them. And I’m like, I shouldn’t be getting so much enjoyment out of like arguing with racists online.
Honestly, it’s just like, I I enjoyed watching it, because you truly just like when you don’t yield any ground, and you’re just like, I’ve already told you this. I don’t know why you have the intention. Because it’s like, I’m not going to be around this. Why should I? Thank you. I’ve really
J S 13:23
enjoyed arguing with Brendan price. That was probably my favorite. Actually.
That was excessive. You know, it made me want to watch Hidden Figures. But I haven’t watched in a long time. Maybe I think
J S 13:38
maybe. I mean, Brandon quest makes the roll. So I guess
I should have I should check in with them.
J S 13:51
Yeah, so when we reach that point, I feel like it’s kind of questionable whether or not it’s like a good thing. Yeah, your points were very good would transition very well to white feminism, which I know there is a lot of things to say. But before we get there, you did talk about like you have to come to terms with that. If you go ahead and you say something, you might get some pushback, and this might happen. So what was your process to because that that is a scary step to take. So what was your process to kind of sealing yourself and coming to terms with that?
Honestly, like I’m such an over thinker. So if I’m if I really do feel strongly about something, I just throw myself into doing it. I just kind of rely on that. Like righteous anger about it just once I get to a certain point and I’m just angry enough that I don’t care. That’s when I’m like, okay, we’re gonna do it. I just like I just have to rely on that part of myself that is not willing to sit down and isn’t prepared. Because I feel like there’s this great part All of us that are scared, like we’re all scared to speak up, especially in an environment where it’s dominated by, you know, white, heterosexual male perspective. And they make no mistake or any hesitation to remind you and remind you that you are not wanted or welcome, that it is a privilege for you to be here. So you’re welcome and sit down. So I mean, that’s always I feel like I had already saying yes, to do this, during the podcast, already. I’ve already kind of come to terms with the fact that people wouldn’t always like what I was going to say. One, because I’m not like a super traditional fan, like I don’t, I really don’t, it’s a hobby, like I, I’m not a GM, I’m a coach, I do not have this weird, like rabid need to be correct about my cakes. And you know, what I think the team should do or something like that I don’t, that’s not my job. My job is to give my opinion and to enjoy myself, if I don’t enjoy myself, and what is the point of this? What am I doing? So I mean, I already knew that, especially being a black woman, especially the only black woman and a queer black woman on the podcast I had already known in my head, I was like, well, no one’s gonna like anything I say. I’m going to be the Debbie Downer, which I usually am. And I don’t really care. So I mean, I’ve already kind of come to terms with it. And we had a couple episodes under our belt, where we talked about, you know, feminism, and hockey, and we touched a little bit on like, racism and hockey and like we’re getting warmed up. So I think I just kind of gotten my footing, to not be afraid anyway. So truly, it just, it was a terribly perfect storm. And you just have to find that thing that you need to latch on to, to just push right past the fear and just say what you have to say, honing in on that one thing, whether it’s anger, or hope, or, you know, feeling like you’re correct. You know, I love to be right. So I don’t mind holding on. Hold on to whatever you have to to be able to speak up, because it’s more important for you to speak up. And it is for other people, too. If that makes sense.
J S 17:30
Yeah, I would like to thank you for all that you do. Because that’s a really important perspective to have. And I can’t even imagine what it must be like to take that step. But and I think the I’m just here to give my opinion and have fun is a very good self care tip that people in hockey, you should pay attention to, because most of us don’t know how to do that.
It’s honestly, I have to laugh about it now. Because it’s, it is like, it’s, it’s wild to me how much? I don’t know, if it’s, I don’t know, it’s just projection. Like, we’re all projecting onto a sport. We’re all you know, finding some refuge and all this nonsense. And, you know, it’s a solace for a lot of people. But I, I don’t know if it’s just like injecting your own anxieties and your own need for control into an arena that you have no control over, or something. But people really do think that they can just control whatever these teams and these people. Why would you? Why are you thinking about it like that? Like you should be thinking about it? Like, why would the GM make that decision to keep this player that you liked, because you like them? He’s not good. And I don’t care to be fair. I don’t care. I’m not that’s not my decision. I have no business stake in this. And to be fair, I don’t like I know that it’s the business. And I feel like that’s so consistently that and it’s a great song every time it is. Because it’s like, you’re using that as a smokescreen to absolve you of whatever you’ve just done wrong. To fall back on. It’s a business decision, you’re being too emotional, or you need to take out, you know, X, Y and Z factors a business decision. It’s like maybe we need to figure out a different way to do business. Because the way that people do business is not very ethical when it comes to pretty much anything. So I find that arguments so fascinating, and I’m like, are you a stakeholder? Do you hold stock in the team like I what is happening
J S 19:47
I mean, sports fans are like I i’ve cooled down a little bit. I used to be insane when I was little like, it was really bad and I just it’s like, the most unhealthy thing like a lot of sports fans. They’re just way too unhealthily attached. And it’s like, way too much like, because I cover college hockey, like our big thing is world juniors. And every year when world juniors comes around, it’s like, we always have to ask ourselves, why do we care so much about the outcome of like a bunch of 1819 and 20 year olds, like, it’s ridiculous. ridiculous how much we care about this. And it’s like, this is not healthy.
Once you come to terms with how odd sports in general are and like our investment in them, I feel like it’s just a much easier process. That’s true.
J S 20:36
Yeah, the whole concept of it. It’s like, why?
Think about what we’re doing here. Because like I, I forget, what I was saying to a friend was, you know, that athletic ability, it takes them like what to literally run around on shoes and have knives on them. Smack people with sticks. Yeah, I can see that. That’s pretty difficult, like, but you have to understand the complete lunacy of entire sports. Thing is ridiculous. and fun to watch over here.
J S 21:08
Especially when you think about like, I don’t know how familiar you are with kind of like the junior systems and just like, but it’s like ridiculous, like the things players go through. Like they leave home at 12. Like they built
It’s crazy. When I was when I got into hockey, really like paying attention and wasn’t just like watching here and there. And they wanted to know more about the sport. I was like, I’m sorry, you’re shipping your child away. Family, so they can go be a workhorse. operation. This is very odd. You’re putting an escape at three years old. That doesn’t sound doesn’t sound good.
J S 21:53
I’m convinced hockey is a scam, like convinced.
I think it is a scam to be fair. And I mean, I buy it it clearly with my eyes wide open.
J S 22:09
Like for kids who want to get recruited by colleges, like everyone keeps, like making up these showcases, and then you have to pay money to like go to skills camps, and then to be in these showcases, and I’m like, it’s a total scam.
The whole thing is so much money.
J S 22:24
Yeah, I don’t think my kids are ever gonna play hockey
I ever felt and they’re not like putting a black child to hockey, I fire every single black player. But I, I as a mother probably would not be able to do it. I am far too protective. And I would get I would go to jail or something. You know, it’s
J S 22:47
it’s so going to white feminism, obviously, very broad topic. But I remember that you kind of said that. Like, I don’t remember what I said, because I say a bunch of crap all the time. But I said something. And then you were like hockey’s not ready to have this conversation about white feminism. And I think you’re right. I mean, I don’t know if it’ll ever be ready. But I like I don’t even know where to start. It’s such a it’s such an important topic, but also one that’s so broad, because there are just, there are several aspects to it, obviously. So I guess I’ll give you the floor if you however you want to start.
Yeah, I mean, I, I’m also just I don’t know, I’m probably a little harsh. But I when I’m talking about this kind of stuff in an encouraging way. And like as usually at all, because if I’m talking about it, like I, I have a lot of white women friends and hockey, clearly that’s going to happen. can’t really get around it. And I don’t really like talking to a lot of men that watch hockey. So you know. And, you know, and hockey also has a very large query engine. So like, that will be in right away. And it’s, when I’m talking about this kind of stuff, like I’m never I’m always talking about if the perspective of if you’re talking about this, like if you if you are opening your mouth to talk about this, then you should be willing and wanting to get better. And that’s always going to be a thing that you’re going to need to do that there’s no like top to your level ally, like you’re always going to be you know, at a disadvantage because you do not have the perspective of other people. And you are always going to be learning and that needs to be accepted and acknowledged doesn’t make you less than it doesn’t mean that someone is trying to put you down or make you feel stupid like I think that’s just your you know, your white privilege talking and thinking that you should know everything and you know, acting like you. You should, you should be privy to everything which you’re out unfortunately, you’re inherently not what I’m talking about this like I’m not talking to people that I have to suddenly convince that I deserve to have a say in something, or that I deserve to have anything. No, I am not here to convince you and my humanity and what I am deserving of. You can go to someone else for that I like if you want to be fully educated from the ground up, Google is right there. But I was I absolutely engage in conversations by friends All the time, about you know, well, there’s X, Y and Z about this that you are not even thinking about, and they sit there and they take it with them. And they think about it. Like, if you’re not willing to do the work, then I’m not really going to waste my breath. If that makes sense. It might be harsh, but yeah, and I might not be the best person to like further the sport or like, broaden it. But, you know, like, I don’t think that that should be the job of black women of color. Like, I don’t think that should be the job of any woman of color to educate you from the ground up. I think that’s what we need our allies for. And I think that that is, it’s, it’s frustrating and fascinating to watch a lot of this unfold, because you can tell that a lot of people kind of grasp that. Like, they get that like, oh, like there’s a lot of buzzwords and a lot of, you know, social justice II terms that people like to use, but I don’t think they really understand. And it’s like, oh, like, it’s not my responsibility as a black woman to teach you this. Like, you’re right. It’s not, but it is yours, if you want to, if you like you’re missing the second step, there is there is a responsibility that you have. Like it’s not, before acknowledging the fact that people do need to be led to a conclusion, people do need to have some type of education. But we’re also agreeing that it should not be the work of the marginalized people in this circle to have to do that. Where does that fall? It’s very, it’s not I mean, it’s common sense to me, because I’m like, this is profitable nominations. It is like, I should not have to leave you here. But and it’s also, I think there’s such a heavier left is to educate other people that look like you. Because you, I guess, like, they need to see where they’re coming from. And you’re like, I know, this is hard, and like, I don’t want to push them too far. And I don’t want to push them away. But it’s not always that wholesome. I think a lot of it is just, I think a lot of
there’s clearly a lot of like, up and coming white women, sports, and especially in hockey. And you know, there’s a small, small group, but I say a smaller group that people will look up to or look to, but nobody’s actually did, they, like they’re not some saviors of the sport, like, you also need to do work, I don’t care who you write for, I don’t care what podcast you’re on, I don’t care. You know, what you do, I don’t care if you’re a hockey player, I couldn’t, I really couldn’t care less, you still have work to do. And if you’re not willing to, one, hold yourself accountable, and also hold your peers accountable, then you’re part of the problem. And like, I, if you’re not willing to have these conversations, and like, you know, it’s, I feel like there’s just a hard line that a lot of people find, quote unquote, divisive, but you can’t really, I’m not going to sacrifice my own mental health because you don’t know how to step up.
J S 28:40
And you shouldn’t and you’re right, it is common sense. Now that I think about it, I see where a lot of people kind of don’t get to the second step. Like they’ll do the first step. But then a lot many people actually I feel like won’t get to the second step which is very odd now that you say it like that. It’s does seem like common sense. So you did mention accountability, and that’s kind of a big thing. I mean, they’re just like so many different factors. So
you mentioned I know like we were talking about before, you mentioned that you do have an interest in women’s hockey which is a whole other bag of worms that it’s like racist so argue with on Twitter, but women’s hockey, like I will not touch that with a 10 foot pole anymore because just the absolute worst
J S 29:33
I’m so quick. I miss covering women’s hockey, but I’m also kind of glad I don’t anymore, because it’s just like, oh boy, it’s a whole thing. But how in what ways like for someone who doesn’t understand that there is a white feminism problem in hockey, if you can, like say a sentence or two I don’t even know how to like how would you explain to someone that it exists because a lot of people just don’t It goes over their head. And people don’t even realize like there are so many. I feel like there are a lot of
a lot of white women
J S 30:08
in hockey, whether it’s women’s hockey, or men’s hockey, whether they’re reporters, or they work for teams who don’t quite who just don’t think that there’s a problem, and they don’t see that there’s a problem. And the biggest barrier, or at least one of the biggest barriers, I feel like is that they’re not willing to listen, which is, yeah, you can’t do anything if that person doesn’t think that.
They’re, you know, I think, mostly, especially when you’re talking, in my experience, when I’ve been talking to family, or white new wife, friends, or something like that, I just tried to put in the perspective of like, Look around you like if you? Yes, there are women in this room. But it doesn’t, it matters, that it’s only white women, why does it matter? Because that is only one type of accepted in an arena is that? Is that supposed to be correct? Like, is that supposed is there other types of living here? Are there other types of women around you? Do you see them in your office? Are they consulted about anything? Do you talk about them? Do you see them ever? Because is that reflective of the world around you? If it is, then open your eyes. But I mean, you walk outside, and there’s a plethora of different types of women, and different types of people. And if you’re especially on the basis of, Oh, we have to grow the sport, and we have to and hoppiest for everyone, and it’s okay. If people aren’t seeing themselves in these positions, and why would they think that they’re welcome. If your goal here is to broaden the sport, and to bring people in, that’s really and truly your goal, then you would be able to realize that your feminism is only speaking for one type of woman. And it’s a majority position. It is a serious position of privilege. And use that like it doesn’t help to because it’s working for me doesn’t mean you don’t like it. I think that’s a hard point to hit home. But it’s a just trying to get people to think outside of their perspective. And be like, well, if you’re in a room filled with people that didn’t look like you, and you were the only one there. How would you feel? And it’s it’s also hard. When you’re trying to talk about why feminism they then it’s a whole conversation of, well, what’s the difference between white feminism and just feminism? I don’t understand. It’s just feminism. And people get very defensive. And it’s not, it’s not your one here in light and getting your backup. So let’s just calm down. It’s not a slur. Just please calm down. Karen calling, calling it white feminism does not mean that I am
J S 33:15
cursing your name, or calling you Karen.
Yeah, like, I’m not calling you, Karen and I will if I want to calm down. You want to be marginalized very badly. But like,
J S 33:28
that’s the thing, the victim, okay, you can continue. It’s
like it’s a very big victim complex. It’s like, well, I don’t know why you’re attacking me when I’m trying to make things better. And okay, if you’re a real, like, if you’re a full feminist, like an intersectional, feminist for every type of woman, every color, every gender, everything, then why are you only advocating for women that look like you and your space? Like, it’s to me like, it’s just, every time he talks about it, I’m like, I would like you to answer you. I want you to give me the answers here. Like, I am not going to tell you that you’re wrong. A lot of it is just like, Okay, so then what about that? And asking a lot of questions and having people answer their own questions. Because a lot of the time you see people be like, Why don’t know why Why do that? Okay? Of course, you don’t want to do that. It’s not really a conscious thing. You know, like, racism is always conscious. There’s a lot of subconscious criticism. Yeah. All over the place, especially with like feminism. That’s half the problem with getting to the root of it and like, fixing it is that people don’t even realize they’re doing Yeah. And like there are those conscious people that very much want to talk about, oh, you know, women doing what they want and women doing whatever and level of love but they’re not really they’re still saying, you know, micro aggressive versus theirs. Still not talking to or even advocating for women that look like other people, you know, like, trying to bring people to their own conclusions has always been a fun exercise for me because it’s such an intimate like, it’s I can’t, you can’t tell yourself that you’re wrong. You’re the one that gave me that answer. I feel like half of it isn’t helping them, get to it themselves. And, you know, that takes time. And that like, this whole thing takes time, and it takes patience, and it takes coming back to the table, and sometimes having to leave the table. Because if you’re going to get defensive, and if you’re like, if that’s suddenly going to be a problem, then the conversation needs to take pause, because you’re not going to get anywhere good. If you’re, you know, victimizing yourself or, you know, immediately. And also talking about why do you feel like a victim? Like, why are you upset? And like, I feel like you feel upset because you now feel like you’ve done something wrong. And maybe that’s correct, but that is also what we’re trying to say. So it is okay, it’s not okay. But the fact that you are acknowledging that if you’ve done something wrong in the past, you have a handle from during the past or you haven’t been doing this the right way. That’s the first step to actually doing it the right way, is acknowledging that you’ve been doing something wrong. It’s not a bad thing. I don’t think that people like to admit their mistakes, and like to admit that they haven’t been exactly perfect. And I think the white feminism world, the white feminism of it all is like you’re being held up like this hero, because you’re a woman in a male dominated sport. And you’re already you’re getting this hero complex and like, you’re getting this weird, I can do no wrong type of mentality where that’s not true, all of us can go do something wrong. So it’s just reminding people that like, it’s not just because you are capable of making mistakes and capable of not seeing outside of your perspective, it doesn’t mean that you’re doing something wrong. And it doesn’t mean that like you are inherently a horrible person trying to tear down everyone else. That’s not like it’s because very dramatic in my mind, but I’m like, it’s not. I feel bad. It’s not that serious. But I mean, it’s not. nobody’s saying like, oh, you’re horrible, and you’re gonna be stripped of your feminist bad, okay? Not real, but
J S 37:51
like, canceled culture, not a thing.
It’s not a thing, you still have a job, you’re still doing fine.
J S 37:59
I think you put that perfectly, especially that they do sort of they hide behind the badge of being a woman. And that’s why I mean, I’m, like, more vocal about racism than I am about sexism and hockey, particularly, because I feel like there are a lot of women who are constantly talking about sexism. But then, you know, you have issue you have instances, like I’ve seen, when the immigrant ban was first introduced, that was not handled well at all. And there were a lot of white women who were kind of on their high horses about it, and I was like, you’re wrong. And then you think about things like john vanbiesbrouck being hired and how many people were silent about that.
J S 38:38
they’re just there are a lot of examples like that. And my line of thinking really is just that I, I believe, I do believe like, it’s okay, if you want to say everyone’s racist, like, you know, immigrants are racist against their own kind, like, it’s a thing, because that’s how society has raised us. So I do think people need to, like take that into account. Like, that’s how you were raised. And I wish that everyone had like unconscious bias training, and there’s a whole that’s a whole that would be so good. Oh, God, that’d
be so great. I feel like that would do so much, because so much of it is like, not accepting the fact that you have an unconscious bias. Like you’re the whole root of it here is you being like, well, racism is a choice. And whatever it was, no, if you’re white and raised in this culture, you have been, like, inherently biased and inherently racist. You are literally shown subliminal messages like that daily. Our culture tells you that you’re better. Like literally there’s so many things we can point to, that leads to a reverse or supremacist mindset. Like it’s not. I think a lot of these words, hold such buyer for people that especially for white people, that they are so taken aback with how Gary Palmieri and dare you say that When I didn’t even I didn’t say, Yeah, I didn’t do anything. It’s like, no, that’s not. I think that there’s a lot of reframing that has to do with, you know, what these words mean, and the fact that, you know, I don’t I think we all need to get on the same page about what these things are and how they present themselves. And a lot of it is listening on their part. And that’s not something that a lot of people are good at. I mean, myself included, I am not good at listening to other perspectives. I’m working on it. But you know, it’s hard, so I get it. But I guess like it again, especially when you have already been declared or decided that you are like a feminist voice in hockey, you’re like, Oh, I can’t get my badge taken away. Now. I’ve already done so much work. He was like, have you done? Like, do you mean, what work have you done?
It’s a good question.
I don’t know. I don’t see any but yeah, it’s, it’s, I feel like it’s always something that sensitivities around all the word choices and what people think words mean, and being able to hear that they’re wrong is a very big part of this. I think unconscious bias training led to a lot. One can hope. only hope.
J S 41:35
I mean, I get Yeah, like, I get the feeling of like, you don’t want to be set like color wrong, or you don’t want to feel ashamed, but just kind of have to accept that that’s what’s going to happen, because this is how society is. So there’s, yeah, you can’t just it’s not going to change instantly.
So you have to, yeah, it’s also, like you said, it’s not gonna change instantly, it’s a process and like, everybody’s got to be pulling their own weight, like I can’t, I can’t change your mind for you. And that is, like, if you’re going to change your mind, you know, that’s good. And that helps us move things forward. So that’s something that you’re just going to want to do, then you have to do the self work. Like I, it’s not just always making other people listen or changing other people’s perspectives. It’s, there’s a lot of self work that has to be done. And continuously done. It’s not a one and done thing. And that’s not a bad thing. It’s not a horrible thing to admit that you need to work on yourself continuously. All of us do. And some of like, it just happens that you have to work on other things, because you are white. That’s just that is going to be the thing. You have very different perspectives and view that a lot of other people.
J S 42:54
Yeah. So it’s kind of circling back to hockey not being ready for this conversation. I feel like I know the answer to this. But I guess for the benefit of our listeners, like, Why would you say that hockey isn’t ready to have that conversation?
I think that I mean, people in hockey can even agree that like black men shouldn’t be called racial slurs in the locker room, like, if you if you can’t even say like, Oh, yeah, blackface is wrong, and he shouldn’t have done that. And that was racist, like, a lot of people in hockey can’t even say the word racist or racism. And immediately when that comes up, it’s just an offshore. So it’s an I think, just in my own perspective, and like my own chalky brains, I just know, so many people that are not willing to put their necks out. Like people are not willing to sacrifice their own popularity or, you know, connections and stuff like that, or the greater goal. I think there’s, like, I just, I don’t think that people are ready to do the work that they think they are, and that they’re calling for other people to do. So when I saw that, I remember you said he has a white friendzone like, what what’s the problem? Like it’s an issue, and I was like, Yeah, they do but like conversations, because suddenly you’re gonna have to call it your friends. You’re not gonna like that, or you’re gonna have to call it your friends and you have to call it yourself. And you’re gonna have to draw a line in the sand of this is not okay. And I’m not going to sit down and let you say these things anymore, or forgive away or explain away what you’re saying and what you’re doing for the 50th time. You know, and it’s it’s going to be interesting. People aren’t ready to take drastic measures of this. Like, if this person has very to take the Portnoy, for example, nobody’s ready to exile that man, they don’t want to, they don’t want to there. Because suddenly, you’re going to be cutting out a big fan base and what, to me, I’m a lot them. But it’s just like the unwillingness to just take such a drastic measure. Which is, I mean, that’s drastic, but like not communicating with someone or uplifting, someone’s worked who is consistently racist. I don’t think that that they’re still gonna have a following. There’s so many plenty people in hockey that are gonna lift up their work, trust me, we’re not getting through this in one night, but like, people have to take a stand and people have to not entertain certain folks, they’re not entertained. You know, we just have, you have to have a bit of backbone here.
And you can’t be you have to push back, push back to the fear, like you really do have to just push past it, if that’s really what you want to do. And that’s really what you believe in and stand up for it. And like it, and that that’s, I don’t think that people in hockey, especially by limited hockey are really ready to do that. I think there’s a very small pool that would, I am privileged enough to call some of them my friends. And, you know, I know that they do and continue to do that stuff. And I’m privy to conversations in private, or in public, that are happening. You know, when it’s just being said, hey, what you just said right here is not okay. And I know you’re kidding, but like, That’s not funny, or, you know, people that are willing to speak up. But I feel like the overwhelming majority of people especially I’m like, not, I don’t like calling it fandom because I feel like a lot of people like to use that term as trivializing, but like, not professional writers, though, that’s a whole different story. Where again, they’re not ready, they don’t want to do it. Because that goes back to connections and getting rid of people that, you know, you’re going to be seen as a hard ass or a Debbie Downer, or you’re going to be someone as divisive as a problem. You don’t want to sacrifice your own success in your own. You don’t want to sacrifice your own shit for the greater purpose. And you don’t share that. on a professional level is whatever, a different conversation but just even just in community dynamics, like the hockey community, I don’t think that people are willing to take such a harsh stand and cut certain people out. Not even cut them out, but just not even give them a blast. And it’s, I mean, that ranges from like, personal relationships to just wanting to be seen by someone that you think is popular, like it just is very, I think we’re all it’s just very lizard brain, but
J S 48:08
it’s a very suck up culture.
It reminds me of high school, and it makes me very tired. And oh, it
J S 48:15
definitely is high school.
It’s just, it’s very aggressive. And I think a lot of people like it doesn’t matter how old you are. Suddenly you are, you know, the head cheerleader, cheerleader getting called out for being mean. And you’re like, I’m not being mean, how dare you call me that? Why would you say that? Yeah. It’s just, it’s all. I think a lot of it is also, it’s not about you. And I don’t think a lot of people are willing to accept that it’s not always about them. And that sometimes, like you have to make decisions that aren’t just about you, if you actually believe in something. Yeah, I don’t I don’t think that people when I saw that, I was like, You know what, I’m like, I’m already I’m already here as opposed to if I really care people are making me mad. I’m just like, this is ridiculous, like watching the same things happen. Every month, like the same person says the same stupid thing, or the same group of people says the same stupid thing. And nobody’s. There’s no like. I think the difference for me is like, what I really liked was I remember, something happened with Gillian Fisher. And you ended up having her on with a Twitter chat. And I really liked that. I think that was very noted a great way of handling the situation. For her. I think she handled that better than other people would, and actually took it from the perspective of I would like to learn and do better. And I would like to understand and I knew Like, that’s something that I don’t think a lot of people would do, especially publicly. Yeah. And I mean, like, there’s still issues like, there’s, you know, all of it is still, there’s a lot going on. But I think there’s also just a lot of people that are going to admit that they’re wrong, and say, Yes, I did do something wrong. And I would like to learn and I would like everybody to know that there’s just so much the left in an ego. It’s just, there’s a lot of ego that is holding a lot of progress back. And
J S 50:39
yeah, you’re absolutely right. And the the popularity thing really killed me, because it’s so true. I mean, I like I think back to before I started saying anything, so I would probably go to like, 2015 before and like, obviously, that was five years ago. So I’m not as I don’t know how to describe it, but I’m a lot more like, outright forthcoming than I was back then. But, you know, I remember from my own experiences, being afraid of upsetting people, because I knew as soon as I said something, that was it. But there are a lot of people who and you know, especially women of color and hockey who have done that, and have taken that burden on themselves and, you know, hurt their possible career choices, because they were fed up with us. And now seeing people who don’t want to say anything, and you know, want to be friends with barstool, and like, it’s just, it’s horrible. And it’s like, exactly true. They don’t want to stop being popular. So they align themselves with certain people. And then that leads to other people who say they’re allies, not calling out people who they’re supposedly friends with who are problematic. And it’s just this never ending cycle of exactly that popularity in high school, and it drives me absolutely insane.
I just I really wish that people would just just have a little bit more backbone, outside themselves just a little bit more. Because, you know, like you said, people that actually has something to lose, are speaking up, and probably losing a lot. And if you spoke up, you probably wouldn’t lose that much. But it’s a risk and reward thing here. Like, we have a lot more to lose as women of color. And that’s just inherently true. And if they like you can’t they can’t understand that. And that’s a whole different conversation.
J S 52:40
Like, if you don’t pick that’s going to hurt chances in, you know, in hockey media, or in sports media in general, then I don’t know what you’re looking at here. Yeah, the problem is like that. Absolutely going to hurt. players get blacklisted for saying something than what is going to stop hockey media from doing the same thing to journalists to podcasters to news anchors to whoever. What would that what would stop them from that? Because that’s also the thing, like it’s a lot of cognitive dissonance of like, they can acknowledge it happening with players, but they will not acknowledge it happening in themselves. Yeah, it has to be an outside thing. And I think a lot of it, like you said, with the popularity, but also, I think there’s so many just because hockey media is also I feel like it’s very, it’s a small circle. And I think a lot of people just don’t. It’s the personal dynamics of like, Well, you know, I know this about this situation. And I know, you know, this history, and I know that this and this and like I To be fair, I don’t really care about the history. I don’t really care about the history, like it’s not that it’s an explanation for sure. It doesn’t explain certain behavior, but it certainly doesn’t excuse it. And it doesn’t give people a path. And it doesn’t suddenly say, Actually, you know what? That racist thing you said, given your history, it probably wasn’t that that. So let me just overlook it. Like, no, this works. That’s not how this works. And like, you know, we’ve all been through stuff. We’ve all been through things, whether you know it or not, and we’re still taking the time to hear other people out that we probably shouldn’t get the time of day. And we’re still able to put something before ourselves instead of explaining something away, because just admit that you don’t want to hold someone accountable or yourself.
J S 54:57
Yeah, I don’t be
If people were to
J S 55:02
admit that I’d actually hate them a lot less than people who don’t want that, that’s what they’re doing.
Yeah, I wish you a lot less if you were to be honest with it, but this is what I mean. Like, if you’re gonna talk to talk to me, like my very few black friends in hockey about this all the time, because it’s like, you know, to I hate this sport? Absolutely. Does this sport hate me? For sure. Watching it and watch it, unfortunately. Like, I am here with eyes wide open and like, you can tell me all you want like, well, if this is how you feel about hockey, then you can just go, you don’t have to watch. You don’t have to come to games like, don’t you think I know then fully aware of what I’m doing to myself here. So just you got to go in eyes wide open. And I need to know that people are at least aware because if you’re just trying to bury your head in the sand, and pretend that this isn’t happening, it just makes me more tired with you. Yeah.
J S 56:09
We’ve officially reached that point where like, if you say that you’re totally full of shit, because at this point, there are enough documented documented incidents
J S 56:27
That’s probably one of my favorite things about fighting with people online, is that my entire camera album on my phone is just filled with screenshots on Twitter, people
think I see what you’re saying and like it doesn’t. What do you mean? You can’t suddenly say, oh, they’re not that bad. It’s like, did we forget? Yeah, people. Forget about this, like x y&z incident, like it’s not Oh, you don’t let people grow? It’s like, No, I do let people grow and learn. But I have not seen any evidence of someone growing and learning, I am not going to suddenly be like, Oh, I just, I hope that they’re growing and learning from this, and I’m getting give them some huge benefit of the doubt. I need. People actually need to see tangible differences in your behavior to actually believe you. When you say, Oh, I’m different, or I’m learning or I’m trying even just using you’re trying, there has been so many times where it’s always the same actors and messing up once again, or getting, you know, finally caught on, you know, on Main, instead of MDM or something, saying something racist or something stupid, and I, and then it’s Oh, well, you know, I’m sorry. And I’m trying and blah, blah, that you literally just did the same thing last month. You’re not trying? You’re not because you were trying you would have at least thought about this. You ever thought before you spoke if you were even trying? Like the MC apologies. And that is what I don’t understand how people work people how they were like, also looked at that kind of stuff. And like, do you have it? You collective memory loss, it’s
J S 58:24
like people get and this is what probably pisses me off, like incredibly pisses me off is like, there was this incident in hockey last year, that was a racist incident. And I happened to be the one with the story. And so for once, I was not saying anything about it, because I was covering it. And I was just looking at people tweeting about it. And people were so mad and like so up in arms, and they were like, this isn’t Okay. And then they all like forgot about it like two weeks
later. Yeah. And I know a lot of people are like, well, you’re there’s so much going on, and not everybody’s life. And I’m like, wait, but this is also going back to the fact that Pocky is not just about hockey. Like there’s a lot. None of this is separate. Like, yeah, I’m so sorry to have to tell you guys this, like everything is kind of a political issue. And like all of this. Not just you can’t just isolate certain topics and certain things and certain issues. They all are interconnected. Whether you like that or not. Yeah, you can’t just suddenly Take it. Take it out.
J S 59:31
Yeah. It’s not like what happens at the rink doesn’t stay at the rink, whether you’re getting your brain BNN or people are like cursing like it doesn’t, that’s part of who you are. You’re not two separate people. It’s not like you put on a skin. When you enter hockey and you take it off, like that’s who you are. It’s you You’re one person that
it is your one person that you can do as well. You know, I was a fat or I said something, it’s the same excuses that we see from Players especially like, oh, the heat of the moment, it’s like, okay, you clearly say that all the time, if it was easy to come to your mouth. Or like it was clearly very easy for you to talk so fully like that. That wasn’t how you usually talk. So you’re not suddenly like, a completely different person like this. You’re still you. And it’s, and I think that’s also kind of going back to like holding people accountable. I think that’s also people don’t realize that them not holding someone accountable does reflect back on them. We see it. It’s not just, it’s not just Oh, I didn’t say that. She said that I’m a Yes, I’m her friend. But like, I didn’t say it. Okay, but you didn’t just sit there and let them say this, and they didn’t say anything back. And you still put up with this. Yeah, still associated with these people that don’t reflect back on you. I know that people don’t like hearing that. But that’s very true. And it’s, you know, people are going to think something of you if you are interacting with this person, or, you know, I think it’s the same thing, especially with keep bringing it back to them. And I’m sure I’m so sorry, if you’re going to have these fools near mentioned. You know, same thing that we see with martial like, Oh, I reversal, that doesn’t mean that I you know, support them and like you give them clicks, you give them visits you get? Yes, you do. Like I don’t I’m friends with this person. But like, I don’t I don’t agree with them. It’s okay to have disagreements with your friends. I think that’s a very large part of associating with away from isn’t hockey is like, Oh, we know, we don’t agree on how to do that. Or like, I know that they’re a good person and how they think but they just don’t say it the right way. Or, you know, I’m working on it. And like, one like, thanks. But also, I think you need to realize at a certain point that like, someone, you can’t help somebody. Yeah, to a certain degree, like, if you’ve been taking years to try to nail into someone’s head, why being racist is bad, then maybe give yourself a break. Not like a small break. But like, that’s kind of what I end up having to tell, you know, other friends of color. And hockey is like, you can’t force somebody to be a better person. Like you. You’ve already done what you can, as a friend or as a colleague, or anything like that, you that they have to pick up where you left off. People have to start teaching and learning for themselves. It can’t just be constant instruction. Yeah. So I yeah.
J S 1:02:58
Yeah, like, I usually tell shows that now I’m like, sorry, I can’t make you be a better person. That’s something you have to do on your own. Goodbye.
I there was a article, I printed out this headline, and I taped it to my desk at work last year. And it was I don’t know how to tell you how to care about other people. Oh, yeah,
J S 1:03:17
I remember that.
But I truly don’t know how to explain to you that you should care about how you affect or make other people feel. Yeah. I literally do not know how to explain to you. How to be empathetic and sympathetic to people.
J S 1:03:33
decent. I can’t I can’t. Yeah, that’s
J S 1:03:41
like, yeah. And it’s like, it’s funny, because I are not funny. But I feel like for women of color, like you mentioned being really wary. I mean, I keep score for sure. Like, in my head. I think everyone kind of watches and they know who’s doing what, who’s saying what, who’s only commenting on certain issues, who’s not holding people accountable like that. We all take note of
everything, and I try to say it every time but it just happens so often lately. When all this happens, and like I really hope that y’all know, who I see as being very quiet all the time. Like I I am making notes about who decides that they don’t want to talk about, you know, they don’t want to be ballsy in hockey now. Because it doesn’t have to assess them or it’s going to affect them negatively. If they do say something or they don’t agree and they just don’t talk about it. I do that very often. I’m like, I hope you’ll know why. Because your silence says a whole lot. And it’s always very, I mean at first it was very sad to see I don’t think it is for me anymore. I think it’s just unfortunately expected but i i do very much in my head. Unlike I know who actually speaks up consistently, especially on things that don’t affect them. But I also very much keep track of who I know. And usually I end up on following them or not supporting them anymore, because it’s not. I don’t want to support anybody that’s not going to support me. Yeah. Human beings.
J S 1:05:26
Yeah, that’s definitely fair. And that’s for sure. Like, I mean, I, you’re like the whole disappointment. I think I’m kind of in the same boat where like, at first, it’s kind of just like this sinking feeling when you see something happening. And this person’s not saying anything, and you’re like, well, I thought that person was like, my friend and my ally. They’re not. And then now it’s just like, I don’t, yeah, it’s expected, which is super sad. But there’s, they haven’t shown anything other that they would do anything besides just keep quiet to save their own skin. And it’s really painful. It is,
I don’t think people really understand how painful that is, for a lot of us like, especially when you first get into hockey or your first like, at least speaking up more and hot here, realizing what the culture is just how harmful that is to see people that you thought you could trust or that you that at least trusted you and had your back. not say anything. And that’s been I think that at first was really tough. Just watching. A lot of people Be quiet, which is very tough. Very tough.
J S 1:06:42
I think we’ve talked for a while about white feminism, or anything else you want to add.
I wanted to tell you that I’m drinking out of a pirate themed glass.
J S 1:06:57
And I love it.
I did that in your honor. But
Yeah. But no, I think like I I hope that people continue to have these conversations and folks start to be less afraid.
J S 1:07:16
I feel like pirates were more progressive than hockey players. Well, yeah, it was very different. But I mean, they did have women fighting sometimes on their ships. And they were I feel like they were equally. I don’t, it’s very interesting. Because at the time, like the crossroads of everything, and yeah, it’s very interesting. Anyway, I digress. Well, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it.
Of course, thank you for letting me ramble.
J S 1:07:51
Thanks, again to Danielle for joining me, I loved having her on. And I’m also very glad that we had a chance to talk about this because it’s a really important topic. And I think like, you know, has had been mentioned in our conversation that it’s one that a lot of people choose to ignore in hockey. And you know, it’s really not okay, so people need to start talking about this. And you know, you got to hold your friends accountable, you got to hold yourself accountable. So I hope that you are able to take away something from this so that you can further you know, better yourself and make hockey better for other people. So that will do it for this week. If you have questions, comments, concerns, please tweet at me. If there’s a topic you’d like addressed, please let me know. This actually, this white feminism one was requested. So always happy to talk about white feminism, and pretty much happy to talk about anything. So if you have any topics you’d like to hear about, definitely let me know. I hope that you all are taking care of yourselves. I know that this is still hard, but hang in there. And that’ll do it for this week. So I’ll see you all next week.